.38 Special Treasury Load

[franzas]

Hey y'all,

I wanted to duplicate the 110 +P+ JHP Treasury load. I have no real purpose for this load, I figured it would be fun to create and plink with.

Using this thread:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/108345-38-p-110gr-jhp-treasury-ammo-test.html
I got my design criteria:

1220 FPS out of a 4" .38 Special Revolver

The win +P+ should clock @ 1218fps out of a 4" 38 barrel

23,500 CUP or less

Using Lyman 49th, I found four powders for the 110 JHP and plotted the velocities and pressures versus charge in Excel. Using three data points (start, max, +P) I curve fit 2nd-degree polynomials and calculated the charges I needed. I came up with:

Bullseye- 5.8 gr, 1203 FPS, 23,547 CUP
Titegroup- 5.7 gr, 1236 FPS, 23,005 CUP
Unique- 8.4 gr, 1214 FPS, 23,390 CUP
Power Pistol- 7 gr, 1239 FPS, 22,550 CUP

Has anyone had luck duplicating this load? Are these charges and pressures reasonable? I have some reservation about trying to cram 8.4 grains of unique into a .38 Special case. The Power Pistol load looks appealing, as it is fast and yields the lowest theoretical pressure. I reckon I'd start a couple tenths lower and work up with chronograph. Thoughts, anyone?

Also, If I'm using a jacketed bullet with a cannelure, do I need a taper crimp? I have a roll crimp die that I use with cast bullets.

 

[BUFF]

If your jacketed bullet has a crimping groove, roll crimp your case very firmly.

Be advised that +P+ has no SAAMI specification or limit. The original Treasury loads were negotiated by the government department that wanted to get near-Magnum performance out of a cartridge labelled .38 Special, but was intended to be shot in revolvers chambered for .357 Magnum. It was largely a public relations effort, to show the peaceful intent of the Federal officers, allowing them to say, "Sure, we carry .357 Magnum revolvers, because they are stronger and last longer, but we only shoot .38 Special ammunition in them.

Many of us have obtained and shot quantities of this +P+ ammo and fired it. A former U.S. Immigration and Naturalization officer who lived nearby had me shoot up a fair amount of it. It was pretty hot stuff. I shot it in .357 Magnum revolvers. The only .38 Special I would have tried it in was a N frame .38-44 Heavy Duty.

Remember, the ammunition manufacturers had powders we don't have and technical pressuring gear we can only dream of.

Might be an interesting exercise to try, but I wouldn't want to risk any of my .38 Specials in my trials. I would limit shooting your trials in Magnum revolvers, L or N frames if you can get them.

 

[Rule3]

Why bother??? You state you have no use for it.

I understand trying to experiment but in reality, say you did need it for SD. Do you think at SD shooting range 10 ft or less it matters if it is +P or +P+??

If you are gonna do it use the slower powders. Essentially loading reduced 357 Mag in a 38 Special case only reducing the load by 10% to compensated for the shorter 38 Special brass.

All you will accomplish is more wear on your gun and hands .

 

[Nevada Ed]

with my test with a 686 6" ..........
those powder estimates are way off and don't use them!!

My Bullseye loads only got up to 1044 fps.
My Unique got 1132 and 1305 but way under your "Guesstaments".

You want to use them for plinking................. really?

Carry on.

 

[90crvtec]

I would use one of the newer powders to try to get there, like CFE Pistol, Autocomp, or BE86.

Hodgdon has a 110grn XTP booking at 1300FPS with 7.0grains MAX and this is in their published 38 special data. You might be able to get 1200fps out of a 4 inch barrel with that same load, or at least you could get close, and you're not over SAAMI specs yet. I'd go that route, less guessing involved with pressures.

 

[Alk8944]

I cannot give you any specific load simply because I have zero interest in loads with bullets significantly varying from "standard for caliber" weights. What I can tell you is a tremendous amount of factory ammunition, regardless of caliber, was (and probably still is) loaded with a non-canister propellant manufactured by Hercules/Alliant that was/is known as Bullseye 84. This was finally released as a canister-grade propellant for re-loaders several years ago. It is known as Power Pistol.

I would start with Power Pistol, BE-86, or Auto-Comp, which are all very close in burning rate. Start with your chronograph, you do own one I would hope! Use starting loads listed in various manuals for this bullet and simply keep increasing your charge weight until you reach the same velocity as the factory load gives in the same gun! Because of the high probability that the factory load used Bullseye-84 I would start with Power Pistol. Naturally if you start to see pressure signs STOP!!

It is worthwhile noting that the pressure noted on the pictured box of ammunition is in the same area as what is commonly accepted as that developed by .38-44 loads "back in the day", so there should be no issues.

 

[moxie]

I would just add that extrapolating pressures and velocities can be a risky business in heavy loads. There isn't a linear correlation between powder charge, pressure or velocity, especially in heavy loads. Spikes can occur. Spikes can bite.

Keep in mind also that CUP is an outdated way of measuring pressure, and you have no way of measuring it. And there is no linear correlation between CUP and PSI, even if you could measure it. And once you see "pressure signs" you're already probably on thin ice.

Please also research the purposes of roll vs. taper crimps. Always use roll crimp for heavy revolver loads to help prevent bullet jump (along with good case neck tension) and enhance ignition. Taper crimp has no place here.

A final point that comes to mind is the minimal bearing surface of the light-for-caliber 110 gr. bullet. This makes for reduced case neck tension and therefore increased possibility of bullet jump, even with a good roll crimp, especially in the last few rounds in the cylinder.

Nope, unless you are a very experienced reloader, with a very firm grasp of these points, these +P+ loads are a very bad idea. Until then stick with published loads, preferably at the low to mid ranges.

 

[Nevada Ed]

per post #5

Hodgdon data: 1300 fps in a 7.7" with 7.0grs of CFE.

Well I hate to burst your bubble but....
in my 686 6" with a 110gr JHP...........................

6.8grs of CFE pistol went across my chrony at only 999 fps.
I doubt that .2 grs more powder will pick up enough to get to 1060 fps in the real world.

Back to the drawing boards for that +P+ load.

 

[moxie]

The plant has gnomes that polish and true each granule of powder they use in their tests. We, the great unwashed reloading public, get the regular stuff. Hence the difference.

 

[franzas]

Ah, well, If it's not in the cards, I'm not too worried. I prefer cast 158s anyways. I thought it would be a cool experiment. Especially with the .38 only 686 I'll be buying soon.

Yes, I know these numbers are probably not close when extrapolated. That's why I asked for input. Second, I just looked at Alliant's PP loads and they have a 110 JHP over 7.4 gr, So, if I did a little more research, I would see that these are off.

I'll try a few with BE-86 and PP based on Alliant data, just for fun, just to see what they chrono. This experiment is more or less "just to say I did." I'll probably use up the remaining 110s as SD practice loads for the girlfriend's 642 (Hornady CD copy).

Lastly, when I said 'plinking,' I should have said 'blasting.' Shooting just for fun, with no purpose, like loading up a 500 with 700 grainers.

If I get around to making this round, I'll post results. Chances are it will realistically end up in the +P range with the previously mentioned powders. I'm excited to try the BE-86. Alliant shows 5.7 gr at 1091 from 6". I think it will match Hornady's CD (std P) at 1010 from a 4" nicely.

Thanks again y'all.