.38 Special vs .38 S&W

[Protocall_Design]

You can use 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt and 38 Special in the M15, or any gun chambered for 38 Special. They are designed to fit correctly, being shorter versions of 38 Special.

Usually, 38 Super will fit a 38 or 357 chamber, as well. Those are best used in moon clip guns, though not recommended to do.

 

[filmmaster]

YEt i have access to a several boxes of 38 smith and wesson that was made since 2015, by remington, that chamber in a 357 made in 2010

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Proprietary cartridges were very common prior to WW2. Major firearms manufacturers produced firearms chambered for their own cartridge designs, and generally resisted offering competing cartridge chamberings. Basically, the gun makers were reluctant to advertise or admit that another company's cartridge design might be as good or better than their own proprietary designs. This also allowed some measure of locking up future sales of ammunition for the guns sold.

.38 S&W Special was developed as an improvement over the earlier .38 Long Colt, which was already in Army service and popular in civilian sales as well. Smith & Wesson inserted the "S&W" into the new cartridge designation as a means of distinguishing the new cartridge as a Smith & Wesson proprietary design (why give a competitor, Colt, any credit?).

Known far more commonly today as simply .38 Special, and standardized as such by SAAMI (the industry standard-setter since about 1960). In addition to the longer cartridge case and greater powder capacity, the .38 Special uses inside-lubricated bullets instead of the earlier heeled-base design with larger forward diameter and exposed waxy lubricant outside the case.

The .38 Colt (short and long) evolved with the earlier conversions of .36 caliber Colt percussion revolvers to cartridge guns, initially as rim-fire until center-fire cartridges became the norm. Those early revolvers typically had bore diameters of .36 caliber and rifling grooves of about .370-.375", so the heeled-bullet of larger diameter to provide better gas sealing when fired. The newer .38 Special with inside-lubed bullets allowed (demanded) a smaller bore & groove diameter for the bullet diameter that fit entirely within the cartridge case.

Confusing to many folks, but easy to understand when the period of cartridge arms development took place. Lots of different ideas and approaches, lots of poaching by manufacturers as they saw a competitor come to market with a useful development or improvement. During the same period many of the proprietary cartridges developed new nomenclature, allowing more makers to offer arms for popular calibers without crediting the original maker (.44 WCF became .44-40, .32 WCF became .32-20, .30 WCF became .30-30, and others as gun makers other than the original designers sold their own guns in other makers' cartridge designs).

Marketing ploys, horning in on older proprietary markets.

The original .38 Colt Center-Fire became the .38 Short Colt and .38 Long Colt, then evolved into the .38 Special, then to the .357 Magnum, and eventually to the .357 Maximum. All used the same case head, rim dimensions, case diameter, etc, beginning about 1872 and continuing on today.

 

[30-30remchester]

LOBO is entirely correct about the confusion in cartridge name. In the spirit of keeping this thread going, lets mention a few more. It was Savage that came up with the 30-30 name as they wanted to chamber for it but not use Winchester name. So instead of 30 WCF they came up with the 30-30 name. Winchester finally caved in around 1950 and for the first time started using the term 30-30. They also at this time went from 270 WCF to 270 Win. Winchester was a little miffed at having to rename cartridges they invented just to make it easier on others. Like Henry Ford's positive ground battery system which was far superior to the negative ground systems other manufactures were using, they too bowed to pressure @1959 and standardized and went to negative ground. Winchester never produced and rifle with the 44-40 on the barrel as they had quit producing guns so chambered before the 1950 change IIRC. Then there is the 30-06. It was not till @1933 that the first ammunition manufacturers used the term 30-06. On Remington guns so chamber and ammunition they produced marked theirs 30 Springfield. While Winchester continued till 1950 chamber marking their 30-06's as 30 Gov't 06. Can easily understand the confusion. And lastly to add some more confusion, most people think Winchester's WCF stood for Winchester Center Fire. Close but no cigar. The C stood for central not center.

 

[glowe]

Lots of explanations, but one simple answer. 38 S&W will not fit in an unaltered 38 Special revolver. 38 Special will not fit in an unaltered 38 S&W cylinder either.

 

[McShooty]

Hafta add my 2 cents. The ammo sold by Remington as "target" or "wheelgun" ammo fits both of my model 14s. No more than a mild push to seat any of the rounds. They fire without incident, very accurately I might add, and are only a little sticky upon extraction. I have not tried them in my 1905 Target or in any .357s. Winchester and Magtech ammo will not fit my 14s, so I lay the situation with Remington, who must size their ammo at the minimum diameter allowed.

 

[DWalt]

"The .38 S&W Special was developed in 1899 using modern smokeless powder..."

No, the .38 Special was originally developed as a BP cartridge which held more BP than the .38 LC due to its longer case. That's what "Special" means, a .38 LC case, but elongated to hold more BP. However, the .38 Special came out at a time when the use of smokeless powder was gaining traction rapidly, and it wasn't very long, perhaps within a year, before it was being factory loaded with smokeless powder. Factories continued to load BP .38 Special rounds until well into the 1930s, although I cannot imagine who would have wanted to buy them. The ballistics of the BP .38 Special loads were about the same as the smokeless loads. Keeping ballistics the same may have been the intent.

It is absolutely possible to find some .38 Special revolvers which will chamber some .38 S&W cartridges (not just rebored BSR Victories) and the same is true with .38 Super. Also, some .38 Special revolvers will chamber and fire some brands of .38 Super cartridges. I have a friend who owns a Ruger Security Six, and both .38 S&W and .38 Super cartridges will chamber in it. Sloppy chamber and/or ammo tolerances I suppose. I have always used .38 Super dies to reload .38 S&W, as case diameters are very close. Having fired numerous .38 Super factory rounds in different .38 Special/.357 revolvers, I have observed that they seem somewhat mild, but I have never chronographed them.

 

[gwpercle]

When buying ammo for your model 15 ... ONLY buy ammo that is designated as 38 Special !
There are a bunch of rounds that say 38 but whats important are the words that follow 38 ... none of the following will fit in a 38 Special :

38 Short Colt
38 Colt
38 Long Colt (the 38 LC will chamber and can be fired in a 38 special but is low powered and hard to find)
38 S&W (Smith & Wesson)
38 Colt New Police
38 AMU
38-40 Winchester
38 Super
I'm sure there are several others ...but remember ...only buy 38 Special!
You will most often find 38 S&W but in 5 different 38/357 revolvers I have ...none would completely chamber ...they go in about 1/2 way at most and stop ... it no works .

I know all this is confusing ... but hang in there and learn all you can ...in no time you'll be an "Expert" !
Gary

 

[glowe]

Sloppy chamber indeed! I should know that with S&W you should not use the words never or always. When McShooty mentioned post-WWII Masterpiece revolvers taking 38 S&W, I had to check mine. The tolerances pre-WWII seem to be very close to SAAMI chamber specs, in which the 38 Special chamber is smaller than the 38 S&W cartridge, BUT when checking three K38s, I found one that chambered 38 S&W. Two of these guns were 1951 and one was 1948 vintage. The issue with Remington ammo fitting into the chamber of a post-WWII S&W may actually be an issue of sloppy tolerances when finishing the chambers, or a change in dimensions for finishing a K frame cylinders post WWII?

I am attaching SAAMI specs for chambers and cartridges in 38 S&W and 38 Special, as well as some revolvers that I pulled to check 38 S&W fit. I have no pre-WWII that will allow the larger cartridge to chamber.

As far as 38 Special fitting into a 38 S&W chamber, that is a more solid case, since the shoulder in the 38 S&W chamber will not allow the long 38 Special to fit. If the chambers were bored straight through, a 38 Special will fit the WWII K frames, but a LRN is too long for a top-break 38 revolver. A wadcutter, on the other hand, is actually shorter than the top-break cylinders and would chamber if the chambers were bored through. I am sure somebody tried that back in the day, so can't even say "never" for the top-breaks.

 

[DWalt]

"There are a bunch of rounds that say 38 but whats important are the words that follow 38 ... none of the following will fit in a 38 Special :

38 Short Colt
38 Colt
38 Long Colt (the 38 LC will chamber and can be fired in a 38 special but is low powered and hard to find)
38 S&W (Smith & Wesson)
38 Colt New Police
38 AMU
38-40 Winchester
38 Super"

The .38 Short Colt is dimensionlly identical to the .38 Special and .38 LC, just shorter. It will chamber and fire OK in any .38 Special revolver. It is ideal for use in .38 Special snubbies that have a short extractor rod. I believe it is still loaded today, but it has about the same performance (and appearance) as the .38 S&W. It's a cartridge which deserves to be more popular. The .38 Colt is a different animal, and has a smaller case diameter. It is also long-obsolete. While it would chamber in a .38 Special revolver, it would not be a good idea to shoot it even if you had some.

The .38 AMU is just a .38 Special case with a semi-rim to work in semi-auto pistols. At one time, back in the later 1960s, I came into a large number of .38 AMU fired cases from the USMC Quantico range. I reloaded them for use in .38 Special revolvers, and they worked just fine as the semi-rim had enough diameter to keep the case in the chamber. It's unlikely anyone will ever find any of them today, as they were not many made, only for a short time, and only by Remington for the Army.

 

[342ti]

Stuff some 357mag ammo in it, and hope for the best! 38spl is the revolver equivalent of the auto's 9mm, ANEMIC. You got the right idea though, K frame/4"bbl, Model 19 and you'll be all setYou can thank me later.