38 Spl 148gr HBWC problems?

[Pantera Mike]

All,

For many years I fed my Model 1905 .38 target model a steady diet of Speer 148gr HBWC bullets atop 3.0gr WW231 (the lightest load in the Speer manual) and had tremendous success, routinely shooting 1.5-inch groups at 25 yards.

For various reasons I didn’t shoot it for about 20 years, until last week. I purchased 1000 generic HBWC bullets from an Internet bullet supplier (not Speer bullets) and expected similar results. Instead, I had huge groups, including multiple shots missing the paper entirely and striking the cardboard backing. It was very evident that some of the bullets were tumbling in flight, striking the cardboard at odd angles and making rectangular holes, or ‘scarring’ the cardboard on one side of the round-ish hole, as though the bullet was striking the cardboard at a 45-degree angle.

Generally, my groups were running about 4-5 inches not counting the obvious flyers.

I just measured a random bullet from the box and it measured .358. I’m not going to measure the 900 bullets remaining in the box to see if they are all the same. My question is, would the odd behavior of some/many of my bullets be explained by undersized bullets?

I am tempted to buy a box of Speer bullets and see if they perform as I remember. If so, then I guess I have about 900 non-Speer bullets for sale cheap!

I’m interested in your thoughts?

 

[robertrwalsh]

Mediocre sizing consistency in this batch is, IMHO, by far the most reasonable explanation. Some if it might be 20 years worth of eyesight sliding off a bit, but that wouldn't make the bullets tumble. I would go ahead and pick up some Speer bullets as you suggested you might do and do a head-to-head comparison on the range. That should tell you what you need to know. You can always use the other ones for sinkers.

 

[Pantera Mike]

Thanks—I just ordered 1500 Speer bullets (that’s confidence!).

I definitely don’t shoot as well now as I did in my youth when I was shooting 500+ rounds a week. But I can still easily keep ‘em all in the black with all my other guns, and can even surprise myself with sub-2-inch groups from time to time....

 

[Alk8944]

Speer still makes the bullet you want, why didn't you buy them?

 

[Pantera Mike]

Speer still makes the bullet you want, why didn't you buy them?

Good question! They were backordered everywhere I looked at the time so I got what I thought was the next best thing.

Apparently not!

And now I have 1500 Speer bullets enroute.

 

[k22fan]

I doubt that variations in bullet diameter is the problem. The skirts of old fashioned soft swaged HBWC bullets like Speer's should swell to fill up any looseness and if they were a bit large the soft lead would be easily squeezed down in the chamber throats. I suspect the skirts are not functioning correctly. Air bubbles, crevasses or cracks in the skirt wall can cause a side to blow out as the skirt clears the muzzle. That happens more often with home cast civil war style hollow base mini-balls than swaged HBWC .38s from the large manufacturers. Alternatively if the lead is too hard and/or the skirt walls too thick the skirts will not expand and you may as well be firing plain base bullets. If the skirts are not expanding then go back to looking at bullet diameters.

Edit to add: I see you ordered Speers. I'll bet that solves the problem.

 

[rwsmith]

Hornady

Hornady makes a good HBWC. Almost as good as Speer. I used to use nothing but Speer. Then I could never find any, in stores or online.

I saw that one gun store was an 'Authorized Speer Distributor'. When I got there the guy said that they didn't have Speer anything. Or any reloading supplies of any kind.

 

[Kiwi cop]

When I was working up a load in my .38 S&W Victory model using 148 gn HBWC the first few loads were doing as yours are, tumbling sideways through the target and with 2 in 6 "flyers". The problem was that velocities were too low.

I have just checked the Hodgdon reloading website and loads in .38 Special using W231 under a LHBWC run from 3.5- 4 gn.

I also know that the loads I was using 20 - 25 years ago are no longer "recommended" in several calibers due to changes in powder composition and methods of measuring chamber pressure (CUP to PSI) so while a 3 gn load was right back then it may not be correct now.

Your loads might be a touch light to stabilise the projectiles with the current W231 formula. I'd try loading a batch of 25 rounds at 3.5 gn and see what happens, especially if performance with the Speer bullets is also unsatisfactory.

 

[gwpercle]

I think Kiwi cop may be on to something .
My thoughts on accuracy loads is when using a different bullet , a different powder charge may be required .
Powders have slightly changed over the last 20 years . These new bullets may be harder or have thicker skirts .
A heavier charge might be necessary , the Speer Manual #14 shows 3.3 grains of W231 might do the trick , can't hurt to try , you have 900 reasons to experiment with .
Gary

 

[sheppard]

Are the bullets giving you accuracy problems swaged from soft lead or cast from a hard alloy? Soft, swaged bullets work best in my Smiths.

 

[Yorkie Man]

I have an L frame that I have had for over 30 years and my favorite load was a Precision Delta 148 HBWC over 3.1 grains of 231/HP38. About 5 years ago I started getting bullets that were tipping slightly and keyholes. I was using the same lot of bullets so I changed to Red Dot powder and my problems were solved.

 

[PPCSHOOTER]

3.3 GR OF 231 WITH THE 148GR HBWC HAS BEEN AN ACCURACY STANDARD FOR DECADES.

I USE 2.7 WST WITH THE 148GR HBWC FOR OVER 20 YEARS. JP

 

[Palmetto Sharpshooter]

3.3 GR OF 231 WITH THE 148GR HBWC HAS BEEN AN ACCURACY STANDARD FOR DECADES.

I USE 2.7 WST WITH THE 148GR HBWC FOR OVER 20 YEARS. JP

My old favorite is 2.7 grains of Bullseye behind a Zero or Precision Delta 148 grain HBWC and a Federal 100 primer.

 

[Nevada Ed]

+1 on upping the powder charge to see if it will "Seat" the bullet
to the barrel a little better.

That bullet might be harder than the old "Soft" Speer, which might
be the reason for poor accuracy ay low speeds.

That old weapon can handle 3.3-3.5 grs of w231 with a 148 gr bullet.

As a note but don't try it your old weapon but I have shot a 148 lead
out of my newer M49 snub nose with 4.1 grs of w231 powder
that is a FULL loading with LOTS of heavy RECOIL !!

A full load of Bullseye was a lot more accurate but this bullet worked
a LOT better when only poshed at 628 up to 770fps, out of this snub nose.

No use over working a Little J frame to get a +P loading.......
That is why they make K frames or larger weapons.

Good luck.

 

[johngalt]

Hornady HWBC + 3.2 gr W231 or 2.8 gr Bullseye has worked well for me.

 

[Pantera Mike]

FWIW both my old Speer #9 and newer #14 manual list the same loads, with a min of 3.0 and max of 3.3 gr of WW231. They claim 749 FPS with 3.0 yet I was getting only 680. This lends credence to the theory that the generic bullets might be harder and not sealing properly. I agree with the premise that turning up the steam a bit may make these bullets work, but I am going to start off by switching to the Speer bullets and sticking with my tried and true 3.0 recipe.

Watch this space....

 

[STCM(SW)]

My old favorite is 2.7 grains of Bullseye behind a Zero or Precision Delta 148 grain HBWC and a Federal 100 primer.

That's my load also.....

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Check the hardness of the bullets(not the Speer,they are aprox 5BHN).If they are 9 or harder,the skirt becomes purely cosmetic.Your load,which even for an hbwc is on the light side won't open up the skirt of the harder bullets.
When I was using W231 for my target loads,3.2 was my load.

 

[johngalt]

... I purchased 1000 generic HBWC bullets from an Internet bullet supplier ...

Are those bullets cast or swaged? Cast bullets have never performed as well as soft swaged for me in light target loads.

 

[noylj]

Was the bore leaded at all? Bullet tumbling is generally due to undersized bullets or damage to the muzzle.
I found that non-coated HBWCs were a lot more accurate than Speer and the Hornady HBWCs were just as bad.
Currently, your best bet is Zero (see Powder Valley for prices) or Magnus for quality bullets (Remington were far and away the BEST and the CHEAPEST, but they stopped making them—and I found out after my suppliers were dried out.