.38 spl keyhole?

LMWIS

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New to reloading.

This is my second attempt, using the following: 3.2gr W231, CCI 500 small pistol primer, 148gr Hornady HBWC (.358),Federal brass with light crimp.

Firing out of a 6" Highway Patrolman. At the closer distances, I can group them close enough that they're touching with the characteristic clean 'hole puncher' lines. I pushed the target out to 25m, and I appear to be getting a dark edge (1/16") around the right side of about half of the holes.

The barrel doesn't appear to be leading up. Are these rounds starting to tumble?
 
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First, according to Hornady your load is toward the high end but according to Hodgdon you're .3 below minimum. Since you're using Hornady bullets I'd go with their data.

Second, are the holes in the target round or slightly oval? If they're still round you're okay. If they're oval they're starting to tip (keyhole). By the Hornady book I'd drop the charge a couple tenths and see what things look like.

I've not shot a lot of wadcutters but what I have shot have always given good round holes at 25 yds. Hope this helps.
 
Try a little more powder and see if the situation persists. That bullet with that load should still be stable at 25 yards, but it does sound like it may be tipping. Either that or your target itself is fluttering. I've also seen this occur when I shoot over another bullet hole in the backer. The unsupported portion of the bullet hole smudges the target.
 
I started shooting the same bullet with 2.7 gr of BE. Then switched to W231 and, according to the Hornady 8th Edition, 2.9 gr was equal to the BE. I've also used VV N320 with 2.6 gr, very clean and accurate. None of these loads key holed with any of my guns, including a 4" Highway Patrolman. According to the manual 3.3 gr is the top end for this bullet, 3.5 being +P, so if your PM is off by just a fraction you could be loading at the top end, not good for swaged HBWC (and when loading 148 gr Cast DEWC I use 3.2 gr W231, it works just right).
 
With the fast Bullseye and w231 with a 148 wc design I found
that there is more to it than just adding powder to a load.

2. There is also if the bullet is inside, equal or sticking out of the case..........

3. If you have a light crimp (no belling), medium crimp (hard to see) or a Heavy crimp
that you can see where the case has a bend in it.

Each has an effect on how you loads will shoot and also accuracy.

Since 231 is a Ball powder, I have found that a heavy crimp works better in my revolvers ............
to get lower ES spreads and tighter groups.

You might try 3.1grs with a heavy crimp and see what happens........with a standard primer.

(my top load was 2.7 BE)
 
This what keyhole bullets look like, even at close range.

abp.jpg


The keyholes were out of a Handi rifle that the bullets were too small and too hard for.
 
Hornady has that load making nearly 900 FPS with a 4" barrel.
back off a few tenths. Wadcutters despise being anywhere near the speed of sound.
 
Just to make sure I'd run a Lewis Lead Remover down the barrel a few times and use the forcing cone attachment as well. Since you state that you are loading 3.2 grains of W231 which is below Hodgedon's starting charge, I'd go with the minimum suggested of 3.5 and see what happens.

When I used to load wad cutters I was using 2.8 grains of Bullseye which is a ***** cat load, but very accurate. Never had tumbling, but did get plenty of leading. Just ONE of the reasons I now use 158 grain RNL bullets.


Chief38
 
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To answer the original question, if you think your bullets are starting to tumble at 25 yds, but are not sure, move the target to 35 yd. You will have an answer then. If they aren't keep your present load. If they are you allready have some some good advice in the posts above to try.
 
With a that bullet you are either pushing it too hard or not quite hard enough. It needs to open up in the bore but it can't be pushed too hard or the soft lead will smear all down the bore. Either add a little or back off some.
 
First, according to Hornady your load is toward the high end ....

...and the next post says try a little more powder. What to do, what to do?
My Hornady 3rd edition book lists a max load with the 148gr HBWC load as 4.2 gr W231, producing 950fps from a 4" revolver. Starting load at 3.0 for 700fps.
 
2001 Winchester data for a 38 Special
starting charge weight (grs)

"148gr Lead HBWV.....231.....2.9.....690.....12,400psi"

PS;
I get a lot of "Gray" on the edges of my lead bullets but that is normal....
one test even had a little bit of RED lube added to the paper.

Here is a target that had no backing........ (old box used hard )
2w1v39u.jpg
 
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I believe what you're seeing is bullet tipping not keyholing . With the 18 3/4 twist S&W barrels it's not uncommon even in the Model 52 , especially @ 50yds . 3.1 - 3.2grs W231 has been an accepted & fine shooting 148HBWC load for some time . PPC guns have used faster twist barrels for better accuracy . The 148 HBWC is a long bullet & needs a faster twist to stabilize . I generally use the Remington or Zero swaged bullets , Hornaday always shot good but cost a lot more .
 
...and the next post says try a little more powder. What to do, what to do?
My Hornady 3rd edition book lists a max load with the 148gr HBWC load as 4.2 gr W231, producing 950fps from a 4" revolver. Starting load at 3.0 for 700fps.

Don't want to start an argument but I took my info from Hornady's 9th edition which shows a starting load of 2.2 and a max of 3.5 of 231 for their 148 gr. HBWC bullet.
 
In my M49 snub nose the lowest grains that would fall out of my Pacific was 2.9grs.

With a f100 primer I got only 590 fps out of the snub nose.

I don't know if I would want to try this load in my 6" barrel.......
With the friction , I don't know if the bullet would have enough
velocity to make it out the end of the barrel ?
 
Is your target mounted on a cardboard backing board or just a paper target hanging? Without a backing board, it can appear to keyhole when in fact it's just the paper tearing.
 
Thank you for the replies. I appreciate that this forum is willing to share their experience with the newbs. Boy, there sure is a lot of 'art' mixed in with the science in this reloading stuff!

Given that there wasn't much of a spread between the high and low end of the powder charge for W231, I plopped in just north of the halfway mark. I figured that there would be a reasonable mix of punch and accuracy.

I have a cardboard backing, although it doesn't take long before it's just a 'picture frame' holding a paper sheet anyway. The holes looked round, rather than oval. I'm going to try a couple of the suggestions here, and see what comes up.
 
The key holing I have experienced has been the result of the relationship between bullet size-throat size-barrel size (diameter) and OAL. What you describe to me sounds like a very acceptable result.
 
I use 3.1 Gr of 231 with the 148 Gr hbwc, win small pistol primer. The bullet is seated flush with a slight roll crimp. Very accurate.
I have been using the Rainer dewc in 148Gr with 3.5 Gr of 231. same primer, seated flush with the slight roll crimp.
Back when i first started to reload, i e-mailed Winchester for loading data, and was advised to seat the bullet flush with the slight roll crimp.
I have a model 14-6 with 6 inch barrel.
All of the loads shoot great and group nicely.
I have experienced some tearing of the target with thin paper no cardboard backing. If the paper is the right weight it never tears out at the side and all holes are clean as a paper punch.
Hope this helps you decide on your load. Also the Rainer does not lead the barrel. I would get some lead wash near the forcing cone with the swaged bullets in hbwc and dewc.
Ron
 

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