.38 Spl. +P 158 gr. Lead Round Nose

[Doug.38PR]

Today I started work on putting together a batch of above said load.

Until this I had been loading standard brass cartridges between 4.0-4.3 grains of Unique.

I figured 1) it would be fun to do 2) tactically speaking that would be a nice load to have in a situation where your hollow point .38s aren't quite punching through a barrier your adversary is taking cover behind. LRN going at high speeds might just get through, win the fight and save your life. Factory ammo doesn't provide this kind of ammo anymore.

To do these loads I switched from Unique to Power Pistol which seems to be a hotter powder. I loaded 5.4 grains of Power Pistol into a +P stamped nickle cartridge. The Speer manuel gives this 948 ft per second out of a 4 inch M-14. Of course I could go hotter than this (up to 6.0 according to the manuel) but I figured it best to start low and work my way up.

I'm sure somebody in here has produced something even better than that, but that is my first effort.

 

[papajohn428]

If you're thinking about penetration as a benefit, skip the lead round nose stuff and go with a sharp-shouldered hardcast semi-wadcutter. Soft lead is too easily deformed for barrier penetration. Everything else sounds hunky-dory.

The LRN load was known in police circles as the "Widowmaker". There are better choices for any target or medium I can think of.

 

[Doug.38PR]

I'd have thought the rounded nose by it's very configuration would have more "drilling" capabilities than the flat nosed semi-wadcutter or any hollowpoint.

While you noted the LRN 158 gr was called the "widowmaker" I believe that applied to standard .38 Spl. loadings. Other LRN 158 gr was available back then as the .38 Spl. Hi-Speed or .38-44 made for the very purpose of having more penetration

 

[Rule3]

For penetration, a hard cast flat nose or SWC has proven the best of lead. Bonded FMJ are even better.

The +P on the casing is no different than a regular case. Just stamped that way to indicate the factory load.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

When it comes to bullet designed the LRN is at the bottom of the list in a .38 Special or a 38 at +P pressures.

A hard cast LSWC is a better choice.

 

[Paul5388]

I'm not aware of a 4" M14, but that's beside the issue. A good LSWC is probably going to be your best all around load out of a 4" K frame, regardless of the target. Jump on up to 5.0 gr or even 5.5 gr of Unique and you'll probably get the best offering for all situations.

I keep 125 gr Golden Sabers loaded in .38 Special brass in the house gun, but I use a 4" M66 with a boatload of SR 4756 in it.

 

[venomballistics]

I'd have thought the rounded nose by it's very configuration would have more "drilling" capabilities than the flat nosed semi-wadcutter or any hollowpoint.

While you noted the LRN 158 gr was called the "widowmaker" I believe that applied to standard .38 Spl. loadings. Other LRN 158 gr was available back then as the .38 Spl. Hi-Speed or .38-44 made for the very purpose of having more penetration

in theory ... yes, the RN would be a better penetrator ... in practice its the most deflection prone of all profiles.
while it might get through a barrier better than an HP, theres no telling where its going on the back side.
flat points are far more predictable. Cast em hard and watch em dig

 

[bmcgilvray]

Hi Doug.38PR;

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/144598-some-38-special-chronograph-tests-5.html

If this link posts properly, check out post No. 42 for some information of the type you are looking for.

 

[Doug.38PR]

I'm not aware of a 4" M14, but that's beside the issue.

hehe, I mean't to say 6 inch. I happen to have a 4 inch M-15 on my belt (and was shooting earlier today) and that got my wires crossed I guess.

 

[Dragon88]

I'd have thought the rounded nose by it's very configuration would have more "drilling" capabilities than the flat nosed semi-wadcutter or any hollowpoint.

Huh?

The 38 Special is not a new cartridge. As far as cast bullets go, it was developed to its fullest capability decades ago and used successfully by many law enforcement personnel in actual shootings.

Heavy .38 Special +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

 

[Doug.38PR]

Hi Doug.38PR;

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/144598-some-38-special-chronograph-tests-5.html

If this link posts properly, check out post No. 42 for some information of the type you are looking for.

WOW! that is good info! Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

5.4 grains of unique 1032 ft per second out of a 2 inch..... And I'm using Power Pistol (which appears to be a bit stronger). BTW, I noticed that 5.4 Unique is going OVER the MAXIMUM (which is 5.2) loading for +P. The manuel says "Maximum means just that, do not exceed"

Oddly, I don't see any reloading data regarding 2400 in .38 Special in my reload manuel

 

[Doug.38PR]

Huh?

The 38 Special is not a new cartridge. As far as cast bullets go, it was developed to its fullest capability decades ago and used successfully by many law enforcement personnel in actual shootings.

Heavy .38 Special +P Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

I understand that. I'm just saying the desire for semi-wadcutter and hollowpoint ammo was to make up for the lack of expansion and "stopping power" or effectiveness of the LRN. Also, my understanding, another reason the LRN fell out of favor was because of the risk of overpenetration, whereas other types of bullets such as the LSWC and LHP and other jacketed hollowpoints would be more likely to not overpenetrate due to slowing down while mushrooming inside the target.
In light of this ^, the flip side is that I would think the LRN (especially when boosted in power) could theoretically have an advantage in that it could breach things the more effective "manstoppers" could not.

But it seems the general consensus is that the LSWC is superior in this regard

 

[Dragon88]

Look at any type of load, in just about any chambering, where penetration is of utmost concern. It won't be a round nose that's used, it will be a broad flat point. Hard cast SWCs in .38s won the battle decades ago.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Doug, I just like your attitude about having handloaded ammo for self defense! Some folks are so scared about being called a nut in court that they will not take advantage of doing something that is quite legal!

It wasn't that long ago when EVERYONE that carried a firearm, loaded it themselves, albeit, from the muzzle end! You didn't have lawyers back then that would twist things around 'cause they carried them too!

Now, on to your loads. I do things similar to Paul although, I have no use for a 125gr bullet in the 38spl even loaded to +P+ velocities. I have less use for it in the 357Mag, just me though.

I was shooting a plate competition once and the guy next to me was spanking my fanny pretty good with a revolver. I asked what he was using and he said, 4.5gr of Unique under a 158gr LRN bullet. I asked, Isn't that dirty? He said at anything less than the 4.5gr load, yes, but it cleans right up over that. For me, that would be the minimum load I would ever use.

bmcgilvray has a TON more experience with Unique and the 38spl than I will ever have, I think he even puts Unique on his Post Toasties, so what he has to say would trump any input I could give.

My powder/bullet combination for the 38spl uses a 160gr WC with a load of SR4756 from an old, old, manual.

Here is what they look like.

I know of only one other person that has a combination similar to this as a carry load, he got his bullets from me!

 

[sheriffoconee]

smith crazy, you need to tell us how to score some of those 160 grainers...I would load and carry those myself..

 

[Rule3]

smith crazy, you need to tell us how to score some of those 160 grainers...I would load and carry those myself..

They are probably in my box of 45 Colt bullets

 

[pete950]

Matt's bullets, sells a bullet very close to the one skip makes, they even have them in 38, 44 and 45. See attached photo.

mattsbullets.com

Pete

 

[venomballistics]

smith crazy, you need to tell us how to score some of those 160 grainers...I would load and carry those myself..

should be by the end of the week that I manage to free up the shop from home improvement **** and get back to punching molds.
This one has been requested a few times in the past. Guess ill have to apply a round tuit to this one.

 

[Paul5388]

Skip, I think you're selling those 125s a little short. I think Bill clocked Super Vels at 1237 MV, but I clock an average of 1276 fps MV out of a 4" M66 and they seem to do quite well on the critters I've shot with them.

OOPS, Bill was using 110 gr Super Vel.

 

[Skip Sackett]

As a matter of fact Roy:

At least they are in the box now! Some of the 240gr LSWC, some RCBS 45-270SAA HP clones and all of my 160gr WC. Been working, 'cause I am not retired yet, bunches and in my spare time doing some 358 WSSM, and my 44Mag Encore and a few other things. Up here in the great white north, you have to make hay when the sun shines, or, shoot outside as the case may be! Soon it will be below freezing and it is much less pleasant to shoot outside.

Get them in the mail Monday or Tuesday............