38 Super better then 9 mm

[STCM(SW)]

I have a 1911 with barrels for both 9mm & 38 Super.
The Super I use Buffalo Bore 124 gr JHP.
Don't see anything in 9mm that can match it.
1350 FPS/ME 502 Ft Lbs

 

[.38SuperMan]

When i shot USPSA I loaded slightly hotter than that but was shooting them out of a custom race gun with a supported chamber. I’ve been out of USPSA for twenty years now but understand some of the competitors are loading 9mm up in that range. Eventually the hot loads I was running cracked my Caspian frame along the rail. I’m not sure I’d push 9mm anywhere close to that.

 

[Nevada Ed]

When you start pushing a 115 gr past 1350fps and 124 past 1250fps...
you will need a good or custom pistol to keep up with the pressures.

All that pressure pounding on metal parts is going to take it's toll somewhere.

The 38 super, is super...................... if you own one but for most of us,
we will have to settle for a the lowly 9mm for our shooting pleasures.

 

[Borderboss]

.38 Super at the speeds that Buffalo Bore or Underwood load it are actually within SAAMI (36,500) for that round. It's below where we USPSA guys like .38SuperMan and I used to drive ours to make Major. That was definitely beyond SAAMI, but worked fine with the fully supported barrels.

To get those kind of speeds out of a 9mm, you've got to push the pressures really high, well beyond SAAMI (35,000). I think it's crazy what they're doing now with 9mm Major. When I was shooting USPSA, it was not allowed to try to make Major with a 9mm because the pressures are dangerous. I don't know what's changed between then and now to make it ok. SAAMI for 9mm+P is 38,500, and most of the factory +P loadings come in at under 1200 fps except Cor Bon.

As to the Buffalo Bore round, I would like to see some ballistics gel testing of it before adopting it. My concern is that the bullet they use is the Sierra JHP. Based on testing I've seen on YouTube, that bullet doesn't expand much, at least in the Sierra loadings. There's one video testing Cor-Bon's 9mm supposedly loaded with the Sierra bullet where it does expand at 1200fps+, so the Buffalo Bore at 1350 is probably fine. I'll probably order some of the Cor Bon .38 Super 125gr JHP.

 

[alwslate]

Better than 9mm? For what, maximum energy or practicality? Before ammo prices went up how many 1,000 rd cases of .38 Super could you buy for $169?

 

[chief38]

38 Super is an excellent round and in comparing apples to apples 9mm vs 38 Super, the 38 Super would win.

That said, the guns that fire the 38 Super are larger, heavier, usually older in design and commercially manufactured 38 Super is limited and hard to find. The variation of the Super is also not even close to what is available in 9mm. I won't even discuss price! Last but not least you need to be practical and honest with yourself about a few things..... Are you willing to carry a larger and heavier gun? Are the current crop of excellent 9mm Factory rounds lacking?

So to sum my answer up, yes the 38 Super might beat out 9mm (apples to apples) but there are too many caveats that go along with that. At the end of the day, we live in an era where the 9mm has been developed into what some might consider a perfect handgun cartridge and 9mm ammo is the most common HG ammo in the world right now.

 

[stansdds]

In terms of velocity, the 38 Super beats the 9x19 Parabellum. The 38 Super has a longer case, that means more room for powder, plain and simple. Where the 9x19 shines is in size. Due the 38 Super's longer case, it requires a magazine that is too long for a 9x19 size pistol, so the 38 Super goes into a 45 ACP size pistol and that might be bit too big for some hands.

 

[AJ]

I shot IPSC about 30 years ago before .38 Super was being used. I have a .38 ACP, a .38 Super and several 9 MM. See no real reason to super up either the .38 Super or the 9 MM to levels that they are. The .38 Super is nothing more that a hot .38 ACP. Shooting .38 Supers in the Colts manufactured for .38 ACP destroyed a lot of them. Surprising a Caspian frame cracked, very good frames, probably the best after market frame out there.

 

[Dave Lively]

.38 Super at the speeds that Buffalo Bore or Underwood load it are actually within SAAMI (36,500) for that round. It's below where we USPSA guys like .38SuperMan and I used to drive ours to make Major. That was definitely beyond SAAMI, but worked fine with the fully supported barrels.

Have you ever seen an independent ammo review that measured pressure? I haven't. The equipment to measure pressure is too expensive for anyone except ammo manufacturers. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was too expensive for most of the boutique companies like Buffalo Bore.

After decades of seeing ammo makers greatly exaggerate their velocity claims until affordable chronographs made it hard to get away with I am not going to take their word for it when they claim they can get more velocity than everybody else without going over the SAAMI limits.

I once read an article about the Super Vel ammo from the 70s. This was ammo from the company that went bankrupt in the 70s, not the one making ammo recently under the same name. The author talked Black Hills into pressure testing it and it was about 10% over SAAMI limits. Ammo makers seem to have a "thou shall not speak ill of other ammo makers" rule when it comes to other companies that are still in business. I doubt they would agree to pressure test ammo from Buffalo Bore or Underwood.

I suspect a lot of the "full power" loads from small companies known for hot ammo are going over the SAAMI limits. Not by enough to blow a gun up but enough to cause malfunctions and accelerated wear in some guns. Basically +P loads for cartridges that do not have a +P spec. Nothing wrong with having ammo like that as a choice but it should be labeled as such. Which is kind of what Buffalo Bore does with their "Heavy" loads.

 

[Dave Lively]

And 357 Sig is better than 38 Super +P generating about an extra 75 fps with that same bullet. Nothing I have seen in 38 Super can match that.

If power was all that mattered we would all be carrying 10mm pistols and 500 S&W revolvers.

 

[Borderboss]

Due the 38 Super's longer case, it requires a magazine that is too long for a 9x19 size pistol, so the 38 Super goes into a 45 ACP size pistol and that might be bit too big for some hands.

Depends on the pistol. In the 1911, the magazines are the same size. With the 9mm being so short, a spacer is required to get the round to seat further up in the magazine.

 

[Borderboss]

Have you ever seen an independent ammo review that measured pressure? I haven't. The equipment to measure pressure is too expensive for anyone except ammo manufacturers. And I wouldn't be surprised if it was too expensive for most of the boutique companies like Buffalo Bore.

After decades of seeing ammo makers greatly exaggerate their velocity claims until affordable chronographs made it hard to get away with I am not going to take their word for it when they claim they can get more velocity than everybody else without going over the SAAMI limits.

I once read an article about the Super Vel ammo from the 70s. This was ammo from the company that went bankrupt in the 70s, not the one making ammo recently under the same name. The author talked Black Hills into pressure testing it and it was about 10% over SAAMI limits. Ammo makers seem to have a "thou shall not speak ill of other ammo makers" rule when it comes to other companies that are still in business. I doubt they would agree to pressure test ammo from Buffalo Bore or Underwood.

I suspect a lot of the "full power" loads from small companies known for hot ammo are going over the SAAMI limits. Not by enough to blow a gun up but enough to cause malfunctions and accelerated wear in some guns. Basically +P loads for cartridges that do not have a +P spec. Nothing wrong with having ammo like that as a choice but it should be labeled as such. Which is kind of what Buffalo Bore does with their "Heavy" loads.

The statement below is from Buffalo Bore's website. Unless you have information that refutes it, I'll take their word for it.

DOES BBA MAKE AMMO TO SAAMI SPECIFICATIONS?
Some of our loads do not have SAAMI standards. Loads such as 45 Colt+P, 9MM+P+, 45-70+P, 45 Super, 460 Rowland and there are many, many more, even though loading manuals produced by all the big bullet and powder manufacturers include data for creating such loads. If SAAMI does not even recognize such loads exist, then it would be impossible to make factory ammo that is SAAMI compliant for those loads.

However, our loads like 9MM, 9MM+P, 45 acp, 45 acp+P, 40 S&W, 380 auto, etc., etc., etc. are all SAAMI compliant.

In the last 25 years, there have been huge leaps forward in propellant development. We can get higher velocities at lower pressures than ever before, but if folks are stuck on using the older powders they learned on, they are missing this boat. Unfortunately, many of these cutting-edge powders are not available in canister form for the shooting public, yet.

 

[Blinkers]

I have a 1911 with barrels for both 9mm & 38 Super.
The Super I use Buffalo Bore 124 gr JHP.
Don't see anything in 9mm that can match it.
1350 FPS/ME 502 Ft Lbs

Yea but it requires a large frame pistol. It's more appropriate to compare it to 10mm which has much more muzzle energy.

Even the lowly 40SW has more muzzle energy than 38 super and it fits in a small framed gun.

 

[psquarejr]

I do like my 38 Super firearms, I will carry at times my Colt Commander with Sig HP, can't remember the grain (125 HP?) off the top of my head, but for target practice out of the commander and a full size Colt Custom 1911, I use my reloads which are Hornady 125gr FP XTP .357 bullets being pushed by 6.5 grs of Power Pistol and Winchester primers give me good acuracy. I don't have a chrono, etc. since I consider myself a fun loving target shooter/plinker and reload to kill time and save money, but I do want to step-up my reloading game and buy addition equipment in the future.

 

[colt_saa]

If you want to safely make Major Performance in a 9MM sized frame then you need to be looking at the 356TSW cartridge

While the brass is longer than 9MM Parabellum (19MM vs 21.5MM) to avoid being used in firearms not set up for it, the Cartridge Overall Length of the 356TSW is the same as a 9MM Parabellum

The advantage is that the 356TSW has brass strong enough to operate at the cartridges 50,000 PSI limit. As has already been posted, 9MM Parabellum operates at just 35,000 PSI in cartridge casings that were designed over 100 years ago

356TSW can push a 124/125 grain projectile to over 1400 FPS, that is a Power Factor in the 173+ arena

Smith & Wesson developed this cartridge in the early 1990s in conjunction with Federal Cartridge

Smith & Wesson offered several auto loaders and a revolver chambered for this round but the timing was wrong

Over the years I have setup many firearms for the 356TSW cartridge. Among them are a Smith & Wesson M&P, 6904, Marlin Camp 9, Boberg XR9 and others


I also am a fan of the 38 Super, but when I REALLY need More Power

I have set up several of the auto loaders and revolvers for the 9x23 Winchester. This is a Colt offering that was produced in conjunction with Winchester that was also developed back in the early 1990s. It too met with bad timing.

According to Winchester at the time, this was the strongest pistol casing ever produced. The 9x23 Winchester operated at 55,000 PSI as opposed to the 38 Super's 36,500 PSI. Obviously with the 124/125 projectiles moving out over 1450 FPS, this cartridge hits the 180+ Power Factor

Colt sold sets consisting of slide, barrel and one magazine at bargain prices in the late 1990s and I had a spare 1911 frame lying around so I grabbed one

I really loved this combination. It was like shooting 357 Magnum in my Government Model. I do admit that the gun had some GREAT Bark when it was fired .

At the time the 9x23 Winchester really shined in hand loads of Winchester Action Powder, WAP for short. While WAP is no longer shipped under the Winchester banner, Ramshot's Silhouette is the same powder

Many years back, I set up one of the Model 627s with a second cylinderr for shooting 9x23 Winchester in that revolver. Since the auto loading cartridges moon clips are thicker than clips for rimmed revolver cartridges there was much less wobble on the reloads. It also helped that the 9x23 Winchester is shorter than the 357 Magnum cartridge.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I don't like to copy long previous posts, but as far as colt_ssa's most excellent post is concerned I do need to ask a few questions and opine a bit...

How hard is it to find 356TSW ammo and/or brass these days?

Ditto for the 9x23?

Why, if you can get both 9mm & a 40 S&W in a 1911 platform, did nobody ever come out with one in 357 SIG?

Seems to me to be an opportunity: and a 357 SIG revolver (along the lines of the Charter Arms Pitbull) would almost be a no-brainer!

Cheers!

 

[Nevada Ed]

The 9mm "Major load" can reach a 90% 357 magnum standard load rating
but the pistol is going to be beat to death over time by the slide.

The 38 Super is designed for high pressures and faster fps loads with modern pistols
even though this load was developed in the "Roaring 20's" times of
boot legging, loose women and fast get away cars..........
plus or minus a few years.

Even back then the bad guys knew that this pistol ammo was heads and shoulders
above the new 38 special the was issued to the LE people.

Well, that my two cents worth of all the knowlege that my little pea picking brain, holds.

Later.

 

[Jimmy4570]

.38 Super is superior ballistically considering g velocity for bullet weight. Plus, it just sounds better and was designed to run in the 1911, the greatest close quarters weapon ever devised.

 

[S&WIowegan]

9mm Major

I got started in USPSA shooting in 1989-90 and the 9mm major loading had already been banned. Too many people were using unsupported chambers and having blowouts. The magazine blows out of the gun and slide and frame sustain damage(which may be severe). The major power factor required was 175 at the time....since lowered to 165.

All the open shooters at my club run 9mm major in their STI or SV grip frames. Primary reason the do it is the availability of once-fired 9mm brass is limitless. I have recently seen one catastrophic blowup. The shooter wasn't injured nor were any bystanders. The gun was toast. Local shooters here handload their ammo and NEVER retrieve the brass!

 

[colt_saa]

I don't like to copy long previous posts, but as far as colt_ssa's most excellent post is concerned I do need to ask a few questions and opine a bit...

How hard is it to find 356TSW ammo and/or brass these days?

Thank you for the kind words Sir

There are currently 3 or 4 loadings availble from Underwood and Cor-Bon

A third manufacturer was supposed to have released two additional loadings last year but the Dreaded China Virus Crisis destroyed the time line to a release date.

There is a fourth manufacturer (a BIG one) that is waiting to see how things progress, but they are ready to hit the market with ammunition if the cartridge has a good resurrection

A bit over two years ago Starline ran 100,000 pieces of 356TSW brass for a distributor that has put some of it in the supply chain. One of the manufacturers had 200,000 pieces of brass produced by a different source.

So it is out there, you just have to work for it

Ditto for the 9x23?

Winchester's last run of 9x23 Winchester brass was about 5 years ago. About 4 years ago I bought the remnant (littler scrap) that was at the bottom of the last drum of brass. It was several thousand pieces.

There are several cartridge names that are really 9x23 Winchester clones. 9x23 Comp is one of those clones and it is offered by Starline. That brass used to be head stamped 9x23 Super Comp unforunatly some folks were confusing that with 38 Super.

There is also 38 Super Comp, also currently available from Starline. This is a rimless version of the 9x23 Winchester offering. Supposedly for better feeding.

Many folks do not realize that 38 ACP, 38 Super and 9x23 Winchester are all semi rimmed cartridges.

Personally I do not see the need for the rimless version. All of my 38 SUPERs run great and I do not recall any stories of chronic feeding problems with the rimed cartridge

On a side note, thee are folks that have used any and all of the above cartridges and trimmed them down to 21.5MM for use as 356TSW brass. There is a very slight loss of internal capacity in these cases. So 356TSW loads are going to be reduced a tiny bit in converted brass

Why, if you can get both 9mm & a 40 S&W in a 1911 platform, did nobody ever come out with one in 357 SIG?

Seems to me to be an opportunity: and a 357 SIG revolver (along the lines of the Charter Arms Pitbull) would almost be a no-brainer!

Several 1911 manufacturers have offered pistols over the years that were chambered in 357SIG. Limber and SIG come to mind right off the top of my head, but there were others.

They never really went anywhere afterall the concept of the 357SIG cartridge was to put 357 Magnum performance into 9MM sized Firearms

Do not get me wrong, I am a Big supporter of the 357SIG cartridge. I was working Dallas County when Texas DPS was evaluating the cartridge and SIG firearms in the early 1990s. My DPS Model 239 is sitting in the other room right next to my MP5/357. Yes a 357SIG submachine gun that can put 30 rouns of 357SIG on target in roughly 2 seconds