38 Super better then 9 mm

[STORMINORMAN]

Leggings, fast women and loose get-away cars are just so passe'...

Oh, Ed! You meant THOSE Roaring 20's"?

What about THESE "20's"?

Cheers!

P.S. You weren't really around, then, were you?

 

[STORMINORMAN]

SIG made a 1911 in 357 SIG? I'm totally flabbergasted!

Back to the Search function!

Cheers!

P.S. And they just HAD to call it the NIGHTMARE!

I WANT one!

 

[DWalt]

I have extensive experience with the 9x23mm Winchester. When I was with the USAF I was in charge of a development project for a new handgun for USAF use (this was around 2007-08), and the decision at the AF CoS level was that it had to be more powerful than the 9x19. I worked with Winchester on the ammunition, and they made up several thousand rounds of 9x23 Win for testing using the standard 124 grain FMJ military bullet. I still have some of that custom loaded Winchester ammo plus several thousand unfired cases. For development and performance testing I used a M1911 and 9mm barrels I had re-chambered for 9x23. I handloaded thousands of rounds for testing and found that 8.7 grains of AA #5 was about as far as I wanted to go, MV was running over 1450 ft/sec from the 5" barrel. We tested them extensively at the 50 Meter tube range at Lackland AFB. Unfortunately, the pistol project had the personal backing of USAF Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Moseley, who was subsequently fired as the result of an embarrassing nuclear weapons incident. So the pistol project died before it got very far into the really interesting stage of finding a suitable platform. However, I still use those test barrels in my personal M1911. Another interesting item was that I had the 9x23 barrel made up by Elmer Ballance. For those who don't know the name, he was the initial founder of Springfield Armory. The original SA manufacturing facility was about two blocks from my home in San Antonio.

The 9x23 Winchester casing has an interesting history I won't get into as it is lengthy. But the main feature was that it had a higher inside base that would not rupture if fired in an unsupported barrel. By the way, SAAMI has established specs for the 9x23 Winchester cartridge and chamber. The maximum average chamber pressure is 55,000 PSI.

"Many folks do not realize that 38 ACP, 38 Super and 9x23 Winchester are all semi rimmed cartridges."

The 9x23 Win case has a conventional rimless base, like the 9x19, not semi-rim like the .38 ACP and Super. So does the Starline 9mm Super Comp case. It also has a slight case taper, unlike the .38 ACP and Super which are straight. However, the 9x23 can be handloaded just fine using .38 Super dies. I have both 9x23 and .38 Super die sets, and normally use only the .38 Super set. The 9x23 cartridge will fit and can also be fired in a .38 Super chamber and vice versa.

 

[colt_saa]

SIG made a 1911 in 357 SIG? I'm totally flabbergasted!

Back to the Search function!

Cheers!

P.S. And they just HAD to call it the NIGHTMARE!

I WANT one!

They offered various configurations and barrel lengths

When they stopped making them, they put the remaining barrels up for sale on their website. Some of the Commander length barrels as well as magazines are still listed

 

[stanmerrell]

No matter how old I get people still compare 38 super to 9mm. The super is a hot round when properly loaded that is much faster that the 9mm. The problem is the ammo companies never loaded the super to its potential for some reason until Super Vel. I'm glad we have Underwood and buffalo bore these days to bring this round to its potential.

 

[DWalt]

The .38 Super cartridge has a fairly convoluted history regarding its power level vs. the .38 ACP. It's a little too long to get into here, but you can search for it. Part of the problem has been that the earliest Colt autopistols chambered the .38 ACP and its lookalike the .38 Super. However, higher pressure loads can irreparably damage those pistols.

 

[Borderboss]

Unfortunately, the pistol project had the personal backing of USAF Chief of Staff Gen. Michael Moseley, who was subsequently fired as the result of an embarrassing nuclear weapons incident.

Uh, those are words you never want to see strung together!

 

[stansdds]

The .38 Super cartridge has a fairly convoluted history regarding its power level vs. the .38 ACP. It's a little too long to get into here, but you can search for it. Part of the problem has been that the earliest Colt autopistols chambered the .38 ACP and its lookalike the .38 Super. However, higher pressure loads can irreparably damage those pistols.

So true. The 38 ACP was a low pressure pistol cartridge. When Colt put it in the 1911, a far more robust pistol, they simply hot rodded the cartridge and gave it a new name. Of course, Colt wasn't the only one to do something like that. S&W hot rodded the old 38 Special and named it .38-44 HD.

 

[Old Corp]

A few years ago, picked up a new RIA M1911A1 GI 5" in .38 Super.
Had wanted a Super for years and this was very affordable.
Fully supported chamber.
Sent the slide off to Novak for better sights (I can't do GI sights), placed some double diamond cherrywood-look VZ grips on it. Polished the feed ramp and chamber.

Started researching upper-level Super loads intended for supported chambers. I was quite surprised. With 124/5 gr. bullets and proper powders, you can easily edge into .357 Mag territory with that weight bullet.
I was also quite surprised at the accuracy of this beer-budget 1911, even with these upper-level handloads. No signs of excess pressure.
Returning to factory .38 Super ammo truly made the gun feel like a 9mm.

Did recently get a 9mm barrel for it for range use. Don't have a great supply of Super brass and it's hard to find right now. Darn stuff is pesky to find/pick up on my grassy range.

 

[.38SuperMan]

Anyone shooting hot loads I'd suggest a heavier recoil spring and shock buffer. Factory loads, I wouldn't worry too much but those heavy loads can really pound a frame.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I cracked my Caspian frame shooting major loads. Not only did I crack the frame I destroyed 2 Aimpoint red dots. These were the 1990's versions that were tubes not the little micro red dots you see now. One of them, the electrical circuit failed and the second, one half of the tube unscrewed from the body of the scope. There's a huge amount of shock when shooting those heavy loads that eventually will damage the gun or dot.

 

[rosewood]

And 357 Sig is better than 38 Super +P generating about an extra 75 fps with that same bullet. Nothing I have seen in 38 Super can match that.

And 9x25 Dillon beats that

 

[boatbum101]

Caspian frames are cast . Years ago they were considered a great value & quality was much better . Unfortunately they aint what they were . Better 1911 frames these days . Ask yourself why many custom 1911 'smiths will no longer build on a Caspian frame . Nothing wrong with cast , it made Ruger . High pressure loads wear the heck out of stuff & sooner or later one pays the piper .

 

[.38SuperMan]

Caspian frames are cast . Years ago they were considered a great value & quality was much better . Unfortunately they aint what they were . Better 1911 frames these days . Ask yourself why many custom 1911 'smiths will no longer build on a Caspian frame . Nothing wrong with cast , it made Ruger . High pressure loads wear the heck out of stuff & sooner or later one pays the piper .

The Caspian I had was from the early 90's.

 

[Borderboss]

Anyone shooting hot loads I'd suggest a heavier recoil spring and shock buffer. Factory loads, I wouldn't worry too much but those heavy loads can really pound a frame.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I cracked my Caspian frame shooting major loads. Not only did I crack the frame I destroyed 2 Aimpoint red dots. These were the 1990's versions that were tubes not the little micro red dots you see now. One of them, the electrical circuit failed and the second, one half of the tube unscrewed from the body of the scope. There's a huge amount of shock when shooting those heavy loads that eventually will damage the gun or dot.

Wow, you must have shot a boatload of Major rounds through the gun to have that happen. Mine was built on a Para frame with a Caspian slide. I shot a fair amount of Major rounds through it, but most practice sessions were non-Major rounds. I never had a problem with the ProPoint 3 I was running.

The frame and slide were fine, and are now the gun below after converting it away from an Unlimited gun. I did always run shock buffs however.

 

[Hair Trigger]

I've read this thread with much interest, trying to learn about .38Super. I just bought a RIA GI Standard FS 1911, and bought a box of factory ammo to play with until I get dies to reload with. I've wanted a .38 Super for some time, and the RIA seems a well-built 1911, very tight.

I'm curious regarding the specs on the ammo box. it's PMC ammo, 130 gr. FMJ, and the box says "+P", and 1100 fps MV. When I compare this to the .38 Super loads in my 10th Ed. Hornady manual, Hornady shows 1100 fps as sort of mid-range for both 125 and 140 grain bullets in their load data (they don't list a 130 grain). If that's the case, then is the PMC ammo really +P? In any case, it should be fine to shoot, right?

 

[sipowicz]

Wow, you must have shot a boatload of Major rounds through the gun to have that happen. Mine was built on a Para frame with a Caspian slide. I shot a fair amount of Major rounds through it, but most practice sessions were non-Major rounds. I never had a problem with the ProPoint 3 I was running.

The frame and slide were fine, and are now the gun below after converting it away from an Unlimited gun. I did always run shock buffs however.

If Liberace had joined the army, I would imagine that to be his choice for a 45.

 

[DWalt]

I've read this thread with much interest, trying to learn about .38Super. I just bought a RIA GI Standard FS 1911, and bought a box of factory ammo to play with until I get dies to reload with. I've wanted a .38 Super for some time, and the RIA seems a well-built 1911, very tight.

I'm curious regarding the specs on the ammo box. it's PMC ammo, 130 gr. FMJ, and the box says "+P", and 1100 fps MV. When I compare this to the .38 Super loads in my 10th Ed. Hornady manual, Hornady shows 1100 fps as sort of mid-range for both 125 and 140 grain bullets in their load data (they don't list a 130 grain). If that's the case, then is the PMC ammo really +P? In any case, it should be fine to shoot, right?

I believe you will find that all newer factory .38 Super ammunition carries the +P designation. Just a way to distinguish it from the weaker .38 ACP, which is dimensionally identical to the .38 Super.

 

[.38SuperMan]

Wow, you must have shot a boatload of Major rounds through the gun to have that happen. Mine was built on a Para frame with a Caspian slide. I shot a fair amount of Major rounds through it, but most practice sessions were non-Major rounds. I never had a problem with the ProPoint 3 I was running.

The frame and slide were fine, and are now the gun below after converting it away from an Unlimited gun. I did always run shock buffs however.

I did shoot a boatload of major rounds through it.

After destroying a couple of Aimpoints I had a new dovetail Mount installed and went to Propoint and never had another problem.

 

[Borderboss]

I've read this thread with much interest, trying to learn about .38Super. I just bought a RIA GI Standard FS 1911, and bought a box of factory ammo to play with until I get dies to reload with. I've wanted a .38 Super for some time, and the RIA seems a well-built 1911, very tight.

I'm curious regarding the specs on the ammo box. it's PMC ammo, 130 gr. FMJ, and the box says "+P", and 1100 fps MV. When I compare this to the .38 Super loads in my 10th Ed. Hornady manual, Hornady shows 1100 fps as sort of mid-range for both 125 and 140 grain bullets in their load data (they don't list a 130 grain). If that's the case, then is the PMC ammo really +P? In any case, it should be fine to shoot, right?

As DWalt noted, the +P designation is really to keep people from shooting the ammo in the old .38 ACP guns. Your RIA is strong and perfectly safe with any factory .38 Super +P ammo. I'm not familiar enough with it to know if the RIA has a fully supported chamber which would be required if you wanted to load it up to the potential that the Super can attain safely.

 

[stansdds]

I've read this thread with much interest, trying to learn about .38Super. I just bought a RIA GI Standard FS 1911, and bought a box of factory ammo to play with until I get dies to reload with. I've wanted a .38 Super for some time, and the RIA seems a well-built 1911, very tight.

I'm curious regarding the specs on the ammo box. it's PMC ammo, 130 gr. FMJ, and the box says "+P", and 1100 fps MV. When I compare this to the .38 Super loads in my 10th Ed. Hornady manual, Hornady shows 1100 fps as sort of mid-range for both 125 and 140 grain bullets in their load data (they don't list a 130 grain). If that's the case, then is the PMC ammo really +P? In any case, it should be fine to shoot, right?

Your RIA made 1911 is perfectly safe for any factory 38 Super ammo. As for the stated velocity you will find on boxes of factory 38 Super, measured velocity will vary depending upon the length of the test barrel. If PMC used a 4 inch barrel, then 1100 fps sounds about right. I think most manufacturers use a 5 inch barrel and 130 grain bullets typically make 1200 fps. It's also possible that PMC is worried that someone will chamber their ammo in an older, 38 ACP pistol, so they have downloaded it to something just a tiny bit more than 38 ACP.


If you want to reload 38 Super to its full potential, I'd recommend one very important change to the pistol. The firing pin stop in the 1911-A1 has a very generous radius on its bottom edge, this was to make it easier for horse mounted soldiers to rack the slide to chamber a round. Fitting a 1911 style firing pin stop with a tiny radius (aka: flat bottom firing pin stop) will add a lot of resistance to the slide as the slide begins to move rearward during firing. This is a more reliable way to control the unlocking of the breach rather than swapping in heavy recoil springs that will make the slide slam forward with far more energy onto the slide stop pin.