38 Super in a 38 Special

westkybanded

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What's the real scoop? I've heard tell that a few brands will even extract properly. Would there be a ballistic advantage to the super over a +P load in 38 Special? Is a 642 going to fly apart doing this?
 
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DON'T! Everything I've read says this is an extremely dangerous combination. Yes, it would make a 642 go into KB mode.

Dimensions are all different and the .38 Super has a SAMMI max pressure of 36,500 PSI as opposed to a .38 Special +P max pressure of 20,000 PSI.

You might succeed with .357 Magnum chambered revolver but why risk it? Just put FBI +P loads in the 642 as they will stop anything on two legs that a .38 Super would stop - and do it cheaper.

William
 
I know at least one shooter who had an L Frame .357 modified to take .38 Super cartridges in special moonclips. He loaded bullets sized .357" or .358" into the Super brass and it worked very well. Comparing .38 Super and .38 Special, the .38 Super is in fact the weak sister among the two. Properly handloaded, the .38 Special in a modern revolver will beat it.

Dave Sinko
 
I know at least one shooter who had an L Frame .357 modified to take .38 Super cartridges in special moonclips. He loaded bullets sized .357" or .358" into the Super brass and it worked very well. Comparing .38 Super and .38 Special, the .38 Super is in fact the weak sister among the two. Properly handloaded, the .38 Special in a modern revolver will beat it.

Dave Sinko


I doubt that. Not safely, in a .38 gun. And a .357 is hotter than a Super, so why bother?

Some people have also rechambered .38's for .357 ammo. Again, not a good idea at all.

Today, the .357 SIG achieves what the .38 Super was meant to do. Modern Super ammo is usually loaded lighter than the original 1300 FPS with a 130 grain bullet specs.

T-Star
 
"..weak sister..." Lets see..the hottest factory .38 Special is made by CorBon..about 1200 fps with a 110 grain bullet from a 4" barrel. I have not clocked them yet but since CorBon .38 Super runs 1450 with a 115 from a 5" 1911 I will bet they will run 1300+ from a 4" revolver. So if you would please post some .38 Special handloads that make 1200+ fps with a 125 grain bullet I will post some that will with a .38 Super using a 4" revolver...and yes, I do have a 686-7PC .38 Super...

As to the original question, yes, Winchester .38 Super will fit, fire and eject in many .38 Special revolvers. I have shot them in a 70s vintage Model 36 and a 60-1. There are several gunsmiths who will do the correct conversion to .38 Super... One of the forum members just had his 640 done a short while ago...

The advantage over the .38 Special is speed...

Bob
 
Comparing .38 Super and .38 Special, the .38 Super is in fact the weak sister among the two.
You must have meant to state that the other way around, .38 Super is far more powerful than .38 Special. I have fired lots of .38 Super from my Model 28, and never had any extraction problems. No modifications and no moon clips are required to fire modern Winchester and Magtech brands of .38 Super from modern S&W .38 Special and .357 magnum revolvers. I am not recommending anyone else do it, and I'm not going to do it in my aluminum J frames, but it does work.

The .38 Super is rimmed and has a straight case, not unlike the .38 Special, that is why they will work in the two ammo brands mentioned above.

Below is a pic of my Model 66 with a cylinder full of Winchester 125 grain .38 Super Silvertips...

368595821.jpg
 
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Would someone please explain why you would want to shoot the wrong ammunition in any gun? And, I'm not talking about 38 Specials in a Magnum (or 44 Spl in 44 Mags) the factories advocate that as they are fundamentally the same cartridge except for length.

Dave
 
Comparing .38 Super and .38 Special, the .38 Super is in fact the weak sister among the two. Properly handloaded, the .38 Special in a modern revolver will beat it.

Dave Sinko

I think you are thinking of the earlier 38 automatic, or was it the 38 Colt automatic?

It was the forerunner of the 38 Super which is the same case loaded to about twice the pressure.

It was one of those times when they didn't make the case longer to create what was essentially a magnum cartridge.
 
Would someone please explain why you would want to shoot the wrong ammunition in any gun?

I guess two standard answers would be '...because we can...' and '...just to be different...'. Granted, neither of those are very good answers.

I first did it because someone on The High Road said it could not be done. Also, I have over 1K of factory .38 Super ammo that I consider as backup to my .38 Special and .357 Magnum stash. I don't carry .38 Super in .38 Special or .357 Magnum revolvers, but it's nice to know I could if the ammo well ever ran dry. :)
 
I just had to respond when I saw this. Be VERY careful. There is a story behind the 38 Super. Once you have read it, make your own decision. I know a lot about this cartridge because I have shot it for over 11 years.

The 38 Super was originally developed as a semiauto cartiridge to compete with the 357 Magnum revolvers. One of its design goals was to enable police officers to shoot through a car door to disable or kill bank robbers. No kidding.

Trouble is, (1) it was not very accurate, as the cartridge headspaced on the rim and (2) a bunch of very cheap pistols were imported that were rather weak to handle the cartridge. Because of the first reason, not many people actually used it. Because of the second reason, ammunition manufacturers REALLY watered down the 38 Super cartridges they produced and sold. The round sort of languished.

Then, the IPSC competitors, always seeking an advantage, found that the cartridge was strong enough to be loaded to major (versus minor) power levels. The combination of a 115g .355" bullet (same diameter as a 357 Mag actually), at 1300 to 1400 fps, in a cartridge size small enough to load MANY into a semiauto magazine, was VERY attractive to the IPSC shooters. So, they started doing it.

This upset the ammo manufacturers a LOT, as it resulted in 38 Super ammo being "out there" that was clearly way too strong for those cheap imported semiauto pistols mentioned earlier. So, the manuafcturers never did load 38 Super for those higher energy levels.They typically load 38 Super for 115 g at 1100 fps (310 ft lb of energy), or, when feeling more adventuresome (when the corporate attorney is distracted?), they load up to 115g at 1300 fps (430 ft lb of energy).

Now I handload, so for me, using the Vihtavuori relaoding manual at SAFE levels, I can make 38 Super ammo that spits 115g .355 bullets out at 1450 fps (537 ft lb of energy). That's WAY hotter than any "38 Special" factory loads, but as others have already pointed out, still less than 357 Magnum, which easily reaches 600 ft lb of energy and higher as I recall.

So, you can reach a couple of conclusions after digesting the above:

1. CURRENT FACTORY 38 Super ammo MIGHT be safe in some revolvers, but prudence suggests they be 357 revolvers, not 38 Super revolvers.

2. HANDLOADED 38 Super ammo might not be safe in most revolvers, but I'm sure that someone will say that an "N" framed stainless revolver could handle them.

Bear in mind that if anyone gets hurt in either scenario, and that person is not YOU, you may have some very fancy explaining to do on a court witness stand as to why you knowingly loaded and fired the wrong ammo in a revolver. The term the attornies are likely to use is "reckless endangerment".

Jim G
 
The 38 Super was originally developed as a semiauto cartiridge to compete with the 357 Magnum revolvers.

That is incorrect. The .38 Super was developed first, offered in 1929, and the .357 Magnum was developed to compete with it in 1935, not the other way around.

ammunition manufacturers REALLY watered down the 38 Super cartridges they produced and sold...

They typically load 38 Super for 115 g at 1100 fps

I respectfully disagree. I did a test of old -vs- new .38 Super factory loaded ammo and found that today's ammo and that manufactured 40 to 70 years ago are virtually the same, both averaging over 1200 fps with 130 grain bullets. A link is provided below...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/65553-ammo-test-old-vs-new-38-super.html
 
..why..? Well I love the Super and one day back in the early 1980s wondered if it could be done so I tried it...none of the rounds would work except for the Winchester ST so I tried it..and it ran just fine.

The Super also makes a snubbie on the same power level as a 9mm. It is too bad more of the manufacturers don't chamber snubbies for .38 Super, 9mm or 9x23 Winchester as they are much more effective rounds than the .38 Special...

Bob
 
Jim...Imported handguns was not the reason .38 Super pressures are kept down...there are very few non-American made .38 Supers out there...at least from the time period you are talking about. The correct reason was the early Colt 1903 semis were cambered for .38 Auto. The .38 Super is just a .38 Auto case loaded to a higher pressure. This is where the problem came in...people started using .38 Super in the 1903s...not dangerous...but it beat the guns to pieces.

And it was not the manufacturers who got upset... SAMMI (I think that is the name) who sets the standard pressure limits for cartridges (regular, +P, +P+) recognized the problem and set the limits. So in reality .38 Super isn't much hotter that the original .38 Auto. .38 Super +P is really .38 Auto +P and the only real .38 SUPER ammo on the market that is loaded up to the true potential of the cartridge are those from CorBon.

Bob
 
Handloads? OK... 158 gr. SWC, 8.2 grs. SR4756 for 1126 FPS out of my Ruger SP-101 with 2.25" barrel. I'm no fan of light bullets at high velocity and have never handloaded them, but if I did load a 110 gr. bullet and shoot it out of this revolver with the equivalent 5" barrel, your Super will still come up short. Compared to the .38 Special, the Super lacks case capacity and can not handle the heavier bullets. I've said it before and I'll say it again... In modern revolvers, a properly loaded .38 Special puts all its rimless auto pistol counterparts to shame.

Dave Sinko
 
..well we can call it equal...160 grain lead round nose with 6.5 grains of SR4756 @ 1170 fps......and yes .38 Supers will run over 1000 fps with bullets up to 180 grains...

You are also no longer really talking about a .38 Special...just a .38 Special case that is running pressures in the .357 Magnum area. These .38 Super loads can be fired in any .38 Super handgun..your loads can not.

SR4756 is a GREAT powder..10 grains with a 125 Sierra JHC runs 1325 from a 4"...but again how long with a real .38 Special revolver, not just a .357 that is chambered for .38, last at such pressures...

And of course the final problem is that most manufactures won't load .38 Special, or .38 Super for that matter, above SAMMI specs. CorBon and Buffalo Bore seem to be the exception of wanting to push the edge...

Bob
 
Interesting thread. I've shot more .38 Super than any other caliber, except perhaps .45 ACP, numbering in the many tens of thousands of rounds. When Major really was major in IPSC (175 PF) I was running 124 grain bullets at 1425 fps (my favorite and the one I shot most), 115 grainers at 1600 (only briefly--stretched barrel links were a problem) 135s at 1335 and 150s at 1200. All these velocities are from a 5" barrel, using SR-4756 powder. No, you cannot do that with .38 Special without getting way out into +P+ Land. NO, you won't find manuals with those loads in them, at least not for the light bullets. That said, factory .38 Super loads, except for some Cor-Bon and Double Tap loads, are pretty wimpy, and I wouldn't worry much about shooting them in a .38 Special rated for +P. Super cases are much stronger than Specials, which also helps, and bullet diameter is .356", which will reduce pressure a bit in a .357" tube. Nonetheless, I can't see a good reason, other than just not being able to get .38 Special ammo, to use Super ammo in a Special.
 
Winchester markets a 38 Super loading that they claim delivers 1240 fps with a 125 gr. hollow point bullet in a 5" barrel.

It is referred to as a 38Super+P

Givin the size of the case, I would guess the pressure to be crowding 30K psi, but that is just a guess.

It ain't no pansey.:)
 
I can't see a good reason, other than just not being able to get .38 Special ammo, to use Super ammo in a Special.

There are those who place great importance on being able to shoot alternate ammo in a revolver. Actually that is one of the advantages of the revolver over the semi auto pistol.

My father was one of those. He spent a lot of time praising the .357 Mg. because of this, citing the fact that .38 Sp. ammo could be used and USUALLY even .38 S&W ammo would chamber and fire and also the .38 Super and the earlier 38 ACP.

I think the old man had a survivalist mentality, but it was wasted on me because I came into the world when it was as easy to get the RIGHT ammo as it was to get something that would just go bang.

I agree with you.....I fail to see the reason, absent, of course, being in a combat situation and .38 Super being all that was available.
 
Winchester markets a 38 Super loading that they claim delivers 1240 fps with a 125 gr. hollow point bullet in a 5" barrel.

It is referred to as a 38Super+P

Givin the size of the case, I would guess the pressure to be crowding 30K psi, but that is just a guess.

It ain't no pansey.:)
Is that the Silvertip? If so, I've chronoed it, and it runs more like 1050-1100 fps, at least when I last checked it. Even if it actually ran at 1240, that's just barely more than 9x19 NATO, at 1220 fps. I won't stand in front of it, but it barely scratches the surface of what .38 Super can safely do.

And let me correct myself on something: In .38 Special, with 150-158 gr. CAST bullets, one can get velocities that rival .38 Super, without endangering most guns. With the lighter bullets, and jacketed ones of any weight, not so much...
 
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