.38 Super question

AveragEd

AveragEd

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I have a 1911 in .38 Super that has been less than accurate so I sent it to the manufacturer two weeks ago and received it back yesterday. This morning, I shot 100 rounds of the handload that has been the most accurate of those I've tried and the gun did group noticeably better. Now I'm wondering if some further load tinkering might help.

I'm using a Missouri IDP #6 125-grain lead semi-wadcutter over the minimum powder charge of 5.5 grains of WW AutoComp powder in Starline cases with CCI500 primers. I know the .38 Super is considered a "hot" 9mm but the felt recoil with this gun is very similar to that of my .45ACP shooting my 185-grain target loads and I'm suspecting that a lower muzzle velocity might reduce the flyers I'm getting. I haven't chronographed the .38 but loading data indicates I should be around 1,100fps, pretty stout for punching paper. The two 50-round 25-yard groups I shot from a rest today each indicate a nice core pattern but perhaps a dozen flyers I would like to eliminate as much as possible. The maximum recommended powder charge is 6.1 grains, so the range is narrow. I'm wondering if I would run into problems other than incomplete slide cycling (which could be addressed with a softer recoil spring) by dropping the powder charge down to 5.0 grains. Has anyone experimented with this? I tried contacting Hodgdon Powders but they are closed on Fridays.

Thanks for any input!

Ed
 
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AveragEd said:
I have a 1911 in .38 Super that has been less than accurate so I sent it to the manufacturer two weeks ago and received it back yesterday. This morning, I shot 100 rounds of the handload that has been the most accurate of those I've tried and the gun did group noticeably better. Now I'm wondering if some further load tinkering might help.

I'm using a Missouri IDP #6 125-grain lead semi-wadcutter over the minimum powder charge of 5.5 grains of WW AutoComp powder in Starline cases with CCI500 primers. I know the .38 Super is considered a "hot" 9mm but the felt recoil with this gun is very similar to that of my .45ACP shooting my 185-grain target loads and I'm suspecting that a lower muzzle velocity might reduce the flyers I'm getting. I haven't chronographed the .38 but loading data indicates I should be around 1,100fps, pretty stout for punching paper. The two 50-round 25-yard groups I shot from a rest today each indicate a nice core pattern but perhaps a dozen flyers I would like to eliminate as much as possible. The maximum recommended powder charge is 6.1 grains, so the range is narrow. I'm wondering if I would run into problems other than incomplete slide cycling (which could be addressed with a softer recoil spring) by dropping the powder charge down to 5.0 grains. Has anyone experimented with this? I tried contacting Hodgdon Powders but they are closed on Fridays.

Thanks for any input!

Ed
Click to expand...

I would try a different powder (if you have or can find a suitable replacement). You didn't say if your pistol has a compensator or not, but if not you might find that a different powder will work better. Autocomp was designed for compensated pistols and sometimes you can find more accuracy using a different powder. Charge weight will definitely affect group size, I've found that even a change of 0.1 grain will have a noticeable effect.
 
First of all Flyers are a part of life. Your "allowed" one flyer for every five or six shots. So dividing gives us 16-20 flyers. Your ahead of the game!!I dont shoot the super but Ive read about it. For best accuracy .38 Super needs to headspace on the case mouth not the rim. Nowdays I think new Colts do. You need to check that. A lot of loads do best at max power. Have you tried loading up to the max grains of powder? That may help but do it right! Dont go up more than .1 of a grain at a time. Load five of each. Check for unsafe signs until your satisfied its a safe load in your gun. H
If your competing with the Super your Power Factor is 137,500 close to the minimum Power Factor of 125,000 for Minor Caliber. If you drop it down anymore you may go under on a few shots considering variations in velocity on hot and cold days.
 
One of the gun magazines had a recent article on loading for the super. I will see if I can find it for you.
 
Try going up a 1/10 th grain at a time and see how that works..,sometimes that does the trick...tin.....
 
I have found two lead bullet loads that worked pretty well in my .38 Supers but I haven't experimented a lot. I don't go with "allowing" flyers. :D The load either shoots or it doesn't.

My experience with ordinary commercial .38 Super barrels has not been good with either lead or jacketed. IMO, if you really want your .38 Super to shoot lead, order a barrel from Kart (tell them you will be shooting lead) and have it fitted by a competent 1911 gunsmith.

You haven't given us much specific information about your gun and loading practices but as to powders, in my case I use HS6 and WSF. The lead loads I use are in the 1000-1100 FPS range, which is really just "idling" for a .38 Super. I have not experimented with light springs for exceptionally light loads. My guns have Wilson 15# springs in them and cycle reliably with my loads so I haven't had cause to change them.

Bullets are .357" diameter with a light taper crimp. (I have not measured it so can't give you a figure.) My lead loads normally outshoot all but the best commercial hollow-points and outshoot all of the commercial ball loads I've tried.
 
Hey Ed -
You might try light loads of a faster powder. You load Clays for your .357 target loads, right? If you can find Clays 38 Super data for that CB, it might just do the trick.

If not Clays, maybe 231, TiteGroup, BE, or ST.

As you point out, you would need to lighten the recoil spring, but bear in mind that you can also get a lower weight main (hammer) spring, as well.

ISMI makes great 1911 springs, & can be ordered through Brownells - or direct.

You didn't specify any details about your pistol, but if it feeds smoothly, you might look at a lighter crimp, & possibly even a little less neck tension, w/ larger diameter expander die. Lyman M maybe?

Sounds like an interesting project!

Gary
 
Thanks for the ideas. I am a very experienced handloader but am new to this cartridge.

The gun is Kimber Stainless Target II I bought new five months ago. I've not tried a whole lot of bullets but I did learn that it much prefers the .356" bullets recommended for it over the 9mm's .355" ones. As far as powders, I've tried 231, Clays, TiteGroup and AutoComp with the latter giving me the best groups. I have a fairly new pound of Bullseye on hand but it burned so filthy in my revolvers that I stopped using it perhaps 30 years ago and never tried it in anything since then. Perhaps I should as AutoComp was cruddy in the revolver cartridges in which I tried it but seems much cleaner in my 1911s and I now use it in my .45ACP as well.

I have given thought to using .357" bullets in the gun as experience has taught me that a tighter bullet-to-bore fit yields better accuracy but I didn't want to increase pressure to a danger point. I'll have to shop around for ones that might work, both in terms of weight and design.

Ed
 
The Super from a properly set up gun has beem deemed to be the most accurate semi-auto pistol cartridge by many top custom 1911 smiths...it is also a lot easier to shoot than .45s..

Question...what make and model Super do you have... If it is a Colt 1911 was it made before or after 1990?

As to load stoutness...I have never fired a round of Super under 1200 fps...you may find bumping up will eliminating more filers than decresing the load as long as you don't develop a flinch...

27 shots at 50' with a bought off ebay Colt 1911 .38 Super barrel in a 1951 9mm Commander...





25 yards with a TALO Commander...



Most accurate easy shooting guns I own...Bob
 
Ed..just saw your response... I have a Kimber STII also...one of the most accurate and reliable out of the box Supers I have ever owned.

The loads that work well in my Supers are with Unique and 231...but mostly Unique.

Most accurate bullet is the Hornady 124 TC. 147 TC bullets also work well and one doesn't have to push them very fast...

Bob
 
I just ordered a box of cast 125-grain .357" bullets. I will have them in time to load and shoot by this time next week and will let you guys know how they worked for me. Meanwhile, I guess I'll bite the dirt bullet and load some rounds with Bullseye. The recommended powder charge is 5.2 grains, according to Alliant Powder's website.

Ed
 
Ed, this may sound really dumb but how does your Kimber head space? I read somewhere that the Super 38 originally head spaced on the "rim" not on the case mouth. Seems the tiny rim on the Super couldn't line up the case consistently and accuracy was non-existent. That, I read, was changed but what the heck might be worth a check.

You might also want to speed up the bullet a little. I've heard good things about Autocomp but maybe you're just a little light for the bullet and gun?
 
Good thought but my gun does headspace on the case mouth.

I'm going to load 50 rounds with 5.2 Bullseye tonight - and 50 with 6.2 Unique if my local shop has any. I'm anxious to try those .357" bullets. If the gun's accuracy improves as much with those bullets as it does when I go to .356" bullets from .355", I'll probably be happy.

Of course, then I'll have to start over with powders. I almost hope those bullets and TiteGroup are the answer as that powder looked so good that I bought a four-pound jug of it. But when I tried AutoComp, the groups tightened once again.

Ed
 
I wasn't able to buy any Unique so I loaded the 5.2 Bullseye and gave it a try. The "group" was more like shotgun pattern. I then loaded 50 rounds each of four reduced loads - 4.9 Bullseye, 4.7 231, 4.0 TiteGroup and 5.0 AutoComp - and shot 25 each of them late this afternoon. Bullseye and 231 still sucked big time but the other two were a huge improvement over how the gun shot with the minimum charge of both powders. The TiteGroup load put one shot outside of the black on an NRA 25-yard pistol target and the AutoComp load put two shots out of the black. All three could easily have been my fault as they were the last two loads I tried and I hurried a little as dusk was setting in. I think we're getting somewhere.

I had to refit the new extractor that Kimber installed. Perhaps once every ten rounds I would get a failure to extract so I put some more tension on it and had zero failures to extract with the 100 rounds of reduced loads I shot. That also housebroke the gun a lot in terms of where it tossed its empties. Before, they were going all over but now all but two went right into the net I stand on the bench beside the gun. Those two strays hit the top of the net's frame and fell on my arm.

I also installed my 13-pound recoil spring (factory equipment on .38 Supers is 14 pounds) and only had the slide fail to lock back on some of those reduced loads. If it still does that after I clean and lubricate it next time I will try a 12-pound spring.

After I try TiteGroup and AutoComp with those .357" lead semi-wadcutters, I'll let you know the results. If those bullets make as much difference as dropping the powder charge, my smile will be so wide my ear lobes will get wet!

Ed
 
Last edited:
I run most of my Super lead bullets with 3.3gr of Bullseye to 4.0gr of Bullseye. From my 6" gun the 125 LSWC(which requires 4gr) 147 TC 3.3gr, 150 LSWC (.358)3.3/3.6, ALL run around 1000FPS. The 147 TC, being the most accurate.

While your velocity might vary, you will DEFINITELY need to run a lighter then stock spring. And probably a Wilson or Wolfe spring assortment is in order. The Wilson goes down to 8#...

It also required me to use a large radius firing pin stop for reliable cycling. The radius (small bevel/rounded corner) on the bottom of the firing pin stop can be modified (or buy another generic stop from Brownells.com) to keep slide speed up on light loads. A larger radius allows for a higher slide speed with the spring remaining the same. Meaning the gun will cycle easier then with a small radius and the same recoil spring.

Of course, if your shooting for power factor, none of this advice will get you there...... If you need pics of a large radius FPS or to ask any questions PM me.
 
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