.38 Super velocity testing: Underwood 124 JHP vs Sig V-Crown 125 JHP

[Borderboss]

I mentioned in another thread that I was trying out my new Garmin Xero C1 Pro chronograph, and finally got to check velocities on ammo I like. One of the tests I wanted to run was my .38 Super carry load, the Underwood 124 gr JHP, and compare it to my previous .38 Super carry load, the now discontinued Sig V-Crown 125 gr JHP. This test was using my carry Super, a Para Ordnance frame with Caspian slide and a 5" Nowlin barrel.

Here's the five-shot results with the Underwood ammo:

• 1,350.0
• 1,372.3
• 1,353.1
• 1,347.8
• 1,329.4
• Five-shot average: 1,351 FPS, with energy of 503 FP

Here's the five-shot results with the Sig ammo:

• 1,257.7
• 1,239.6
• 1,261.4
• 1,276.4
• 1,290.4
• Five-shot average: 1,265 FPS, with energy of 444 FP

I found it interesting that both ammos came in at or above the advertised velocity. Underwood advertises 1,350 out of a 5" barrel, so they hit that one on the head. While now discontinued, Sig used to advertise 1,230 out of an unknown barrel length. So the rounds definitely perform as advertised.

I plan to build up a carry load for the Super using 1,000 pieces of the 125 V-Crown bullets I sourced about a year ago. Until I do that, I feel fine carrying the Underwood ammo.

 

[stansdds]

38 Super is another underappreciated cartridge. It's not a 357 Magnum, for that you go to the 10mm Auto, but 38 Super provides more energy than any 9x19 mm load and the cartridge length is a better fit for the 1911 platform than the short 9x19 or 40 S&W.

 

[Borderboss]

38 Super is another underappreciated cartridge. It's not a 357 Magnum, for that you go to the 10mm Auto, but 38 Super provides more energy than any 9x19 mm load and the cartridge length is a better fit for the 1911 platform than the short 9x19 or 40 S&W.

As it happens, the YouTube channel Tools & Targets released a video yesterday comparing the Underwood .357 Sig and the Underwood 9mm +P+ loads, both of which use the same bullet. The gel test showed that the bullet actually performs "better" (IMHO) at the slower velocities because it was breaking up at .357 Sig velocities. The 9mm +P+ is slower than the .38 Super velocity, but I'm thinking the bullet performance will be closer to the 9mm load than the .357 Sig load.

I've always loved the .38 Super, and never really saw a reason for the .357 Sig. I'm sure others have the opposite thoughts.

 

[stansdds]

I have to wonder if the 38 Super would not have been more popular if the semi-rim design was dropped in favor of a true rimless case when the 38 Super was introduced. The Super had a spotty reputation for accuracy in Colt 1911's with barrels that attempted to headspace on the semi-rim and the semi-rim can present issues in a pistol magazine.

 

[M29since14]

My guns work fine with ammo made using Starline's excellent .38 Super Comp cases and barrels that headspace on the case mouth. No modifications of any kind have been necessary. As to velocities, I always thought the original Super ballistics were basically a 130 at 1300. Maybe memory fails me? In any case, with all the powder technology we have these days, it would appear likely that it's possible to improve on that, but it doesn't seem so - at least not with tested and published data.

I agree a rimless round of true 1911-length would be nice, like the 9x23 or 9x25, but it's something the industry has never done much with, possibly for lack of interest. Obviously most buyers are fixated on 9x19s that hold half a million rounds of ammunition.

 

[chief38]

If you have the funds and patience, besides chronographing your loads, I'd also test them in ballistic gel blocks to see how they perform. I know that is not necessarily a direct indication on how effective they would be on the street, but at least it does provide a comparison between other calibers and loads if shot into the same block.

Personally, I'd not carry hand-loads, but that's just me.

 

[Borderboss]

Is there actually an issue with reliability with the semi-rimmed case? I used to know a lot of people that shot them in competition and never heard of anyone having an issue or having to jump through hoops to resolve an issue.

 

[LVSteve]

I've always loved the .38 Super, and never really saw a reason for the .357 Sig. I'm sure others have the opposite thoughts.

357 Sig fits in guns with a front-to-back grip dimension the same as 9mm and 40 S&W pistols. People with smaller hands find the 1911 grip too long front to back.

 

[Borderboss]

357 Sig fits in guns with a front-to-back grip dimension the same as 9mm and 40 S&W pistols. People with smaller hands find the 1911 grip too long front to back.

That's interesting, considering that most of the "smaller hands" folks are women, and they tend to be recoil sensitive and opt for the 9mm.

 

[LVSteve]

It also comes down to manufacturing. If you are already making frames that take 9mm and 40 S&W, it makes sense to use that same design, keeping the cost down.

That's interesting, considering that most of the "smaller hands" folks are women, and they tend to be recoil sensitive and opt for the 9mm.

Indeed, but a lot of guys I know have remarkably stubby fingers for the size of their hands and have issues with trigger reach on a 1911. This may meet with cries of "blasphemer!", but I have heard people say out loud that, for them at least, the 1911 is not the "ne plus ultra" when it comes to ergonomics.

Me, I have skinny hands with loooong fingers, so the depth of the 1911 grip doesn't bother me. My only issue is not having much meat at the base of my palm where the recoil hits, regardless of the gun. Then again the lack of meat also means that I find it all but impossible to get slide or hammer bite. Mind you, I take the unpopular view that if you are getting tangled up in the works, you're either holding it wrong or you need a different gun. Taking the highest grip possible and getting slashed for it just seem daft to me.

 

[moonsterman]

38 super....10mm...all the best of what semi autos can be!! NO not 357sig or 45gap!!

 

[DWalt]

The Starline .38 Super Comp is the best case to use. It is a rimless .38 Super. Of course, the barrel must have a chamber that allows case mouth head spacing. Starline told me that the brass is a little thicker and is safe to use for high pressure loads in non-supported chambers. I have found that that to be true. My top load uses a 124 FMJ bullet and 8.7 grains of AA #5. In a 5" barrel, it produces a MV in the mid-1400s. I stopped there as that is fast enough for anyone. For normal shooting, I usually drop back to 8.0 grains of AA#5. MV is in the lower 1300s. It functions reliably in a M1911.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

As it happens, the YouTube channel Tools & Targets released a video yesterday comparing the Underwood .357 Sig and the Underwood 9mm +P+ loads, both of which use the same bullet. The gel test showed that the bullet actually performs "better" (IMHO) at the slower velocities because it was breaking up at .357 Sig velocities. The 9mm +P+ is slower than the .38 Super velocity, but I'm thinking the bullet performance will be closer to the 9mm load than the .357 Sig load.

I've always loved the .38 Super, and never really saw a reason for the .357 Sig. I'm sure others have the opposite thoughts.

Well, if bullets are "breaking up" at certain velocities my solution can be expressed in one word... LEHIGH.

CHEERS!

 

[desi2358]

Is there actually an issue with reliability with the semi-rimmed case? I used to know a lot of people that shot them in competition and never heard of anyone having an issue or having to jump through hoops to resolve an issue.

I'm curious about this too. I have shot a lot of 38 Super without ever running into any kind of functioning issue. Same for the older 38 Auto which I use in my Astra 400 and a couple other guns. Always functioned fine. Only issue I've ever heard of was indifferent accuracy in some guns that was cured by using a barrel that headspaced on the mouth instead of the semi-rim.

 

[pbcaster45]

I know this is an old thread but I'm planning to do some more work on duplicating the Sig V-Crown 125 gr JHP specs (I got 1270 fps). Used the wrong bullet weight the first time around but I've got some Sig V-Crown 125 gr. JHPs to try now.

I will probably use a Winchester Small Pistol or CCI-500 primer next time. I was using some brass prepped for my Wilson Combat Accu-Comp DP. Don't really need a Small Rifle Primer for regular loads.

Gun: STI Edge .38 Super 5-inch
Bullet: Sierra Sig Sauer V-Crown 124 gr. JHP
Powder: Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.95 grs.
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Case: Starline .38 Super Comp
OAL: 1.210
Avg. Vel.: 1202 fps
ES: 42
SD: 11
Recoil Spring: Dawson tool-less guide rod, 12 lb. recoil spring with Wilson Buffer Pad.
Comments: Lee U-Die and Lee Expander Die used.

 

[SuperMan]

Nice to see this thread back...

....just switched over from UNIQUE to AAC-7 in my Super loads... Only loads chronoed so far has been some 100 Grain Berry's plated RN-HB that is my standard practice bullet for carry guns as I use the Underwood 90 gr. Xtreme Defenser as a carry load... Practice load is in the 1300s and the factory 1560 from a 4.25" and 1650 from a 5".

Didn't need it but have always admired the Kimber Eclipse series of guns...found a very clean one for cheap money and will be next week... Should take all the barrels that are set up for the Stainless Target II...

GREAT round...Bob

 

[robertrwalsh]

.38 Super it great cartridge. It is, however a bit of a niche round and unless you roll your own availability can be an issue.

 

[Borderboss]

I know this is an old thread but I'm planning to do some more work on duplicating the Sig V-Crown 125 gr JHP specs (I got 1270 fps). Used the wrong bullet weight the first time around but I've got some Sig V-Crown 125 gr. JHPs to try now.

I will probably use a Winchester Small Pistol or CCI-500 primer next time. I was using some brass prepped for my Wilson Combat Accu-Comp DP. Don't really need a Small Rifle Primer for regular loads.

Gun: STI Edge .38 Super 5-inch
Bullet: Sierra Sig Sauer V-Crown 124 gr. JHP
Powder: Hodgdon CFE Pistol 5.95 grs.
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Case: Starline .38 Super Comp
OAL: 1.210
Avg. Vel.: 1202 fps
ES: 42
SD: 11
Recoil Spring: Dawson tool-less guide rod, 12 lb. recoil spring with Wilson Buffer Pad.
Comments: Lee U-Die and Lee Expander Die used.

Let us know how it goes. I haven't had time to do any of the loading I mentioned in my original post, but it's still in the plan.

 

[pbcaster45]

I'll have to try WSF too, worked pretty good with the Speer TMJ. This load is seated deeper than Speer's suggested 1.280 so pressures are higher and it's close to the max recommended charge. Work up!

Gun: STI Edge .38 Super 5-inch
Bullet: Speer 124 gr. TMJ RN (.356)
Powder: Winchester WSF 6.0 grs.
Primer: CCI-500
Case: Starline .38 Super Comp
OAL: 1.265
Recoil Spring: Dawson tool-less guide rod, 12 lb. Recoil Spring and Wilson Shok Buff.
Avg. Vel.: 1255 fps
ES: 27 fps
SD: 8 fps

 

[Krogen]

Is there actually an issue with reliability with the semi-rimmed case? I used to know a lot of people that shot them in competition and never heard of anyone having an issue or having to jump through hoops to resolve an issue.

My Sig 1911 Match Elite chokes on regular 38 Super cases. It does fine with the Starline's Super Comp cases. I bought the gun new, so nobody has had a chance to fool with it. Can't blame anyone else . . . .

I think loosening up the extractor would allow it to use regular cases. The way it is now won't allow the semi rim to slide up the breech face. With Murphy hanging around my gun room, I figure loosening the extractor would then make Super Comp cases a problem.

 

[Wyo]

The 38 Super is one of my favorites. There are a couple of good articles out there on the best powders for it. My own experience has been that AA#7 works really well with very impressive velocities and no pressure problems. My carry load is a 124 gr. Gold Dot bullet over a dose of AA#7 that chronographs at 1444 fps in a 5" Government Model. This is in there with the 357SIG and better than a lot of factory .357 Mag 125 gr. factory loads that I've seen. Starline brass seems to be the strongest and that's what I use exclusively. This is in an unsupported barrel but I have fired many hundreds of these loads and never had an issue. 115 gr. bullets can generally be pushed over 1500 fps if you're so inclined. I don't shoot these all the time but this does show what this cartridge is capable of when properly loaded. It's a very impressive cartridge.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I don't need no 357 SIG

I like niche cartridges like the 38 Super

Converted my 9x19 DW Pointman PM-9 for 38 Super so now it does both with just a barrel/bushing change.

Added a few other upgrades to it too.

In my checks S-L 38SC brass holds the same amount of water as S-L 38 Super +P brass.

AA#7 seems to be a good choice in my testing also.

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- The PM-9 is designed to use fully supported barrels -
** Some load data shown is above normal published max. Use at your our risk! **
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[pbcaster45]

I was making up some ammo for my Wilson Combat Super-Grade and my records contained a load for the Sig-Sauer 124 gr. V-Crown. Gun has a 5-inch supported 38 Super barrel.

Gun: Wilson Combat Super-Grade Accu-Comp DP
Bullet: Sierra 124 gr. JHP V-Crown
Powder: Hodgdon CFE 6.8 grs.
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Case: Starline .38 Super +P
OAL: 1.225 (.995 with Stoney Point)
Avg. Vel.: 1316 fps
ES: 29
SD: 8
Recoil Spring: 8 lbs. with Wilson Shok Buff

 

[Rock185]

I've loaded the Super for ages. For some years now, the only cases I've bought for reloading are the Starline .38 Super Comp, and a few .38TJ just to test. The Super Comp and .38 TJ, etc. cases have been durable, reliable and trouble free in my supers. A couple guns required a minor extractor adjustment to reliably handle all the different rims, but my Kimber Eclipse required no tuning/tweaking at all. In fact, with the appropriate barrel and magazines, the Eclipse reliably handles 9X19mm, .38 Super, Super Comp, 38TJ and 9X23 Win. brass.

Over the years, I've used several medium and slow powders to load the Super, to include the often recommended AA-7. AA-7 works well, but for the top loads, with least pressure signs, I've settled on AA-9. AA-9 approximates 2400 in burn rate. Pretty slow for loading the Super, but 124/125 grain bullets at 1450+ FPS and 147 grain at 1250+ FPS have been achieved in my 5" Colt, Kimber and STI Supers without any drama..

ETA: Chronographed results with Underwood and SIG .38 Super are very similar to what Borderboss reported above.

 

[pbcaster45]

Here are a couple of test loads from today. Accidently erased the string data from the chronograph. Luckily, I wrote the average velocity readings down while testing. No ES and SD readings - sorry!

Gun: STI Edge 38 Super.

Bullet: Sierra Sig Sauer V-Crown 125 gr. JHP
Powder: Winchester 231 5.5 grs.
Primer: CCI-500
Case: Starline .38 Super Comp (New)
OAL: 1.215 (.995 with Stoney Point)
Avg. Vel.: 1212 fps
Recoil Spring: Dawson tool-less guide rod, 13 lb. Recoil Spring and Buffer Pad.
Rounds: 10
Comments: Accuracy not tested.

Bullet: Sierra Sig Sauer V-Crown 125 gr. JHP
Powder: Winchester WSF 6.0 grs.
Primer: CCI-500
Case: Starline .38 Super Comp (New)
OAL: 1.215 (.995 with Stoney Point)
Avg. Vel.: 1247 fps
Recoil Spring: Dawson tool-less guide rod, 13 lb. Recoil Spring and Buffer Pad.
Rounds: 10
Comments: Accuracy not tested.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

You want Super 38 V-Crown ballistics? Been loading that bullet for years now. Here ya go (no silly race guns allowed):

.38 Super Comp
Sierra 125 VCHP
10.0 gr Accurate #7
SL nickel brass
CCI 500 SPP
OAL 1.255"
Dan Wesson Guardian (4.25" bbl)
1311 fps, SD 9
15 Yard 5-group 1.25"

.38 SuperComp
Sierra 125 VCHP
7.0 gr Longshot
SL nickel brass
CCI 550 SPPM
OAL 1.240"
Dan Wesson Vigil CCO (4.25" bbl)
1229 fps, SD 7
10 Yard 5-group 0.75"

.38 Super
Sierra 125 VCHP
9.0 gr Blue Dot
SL nickel brass
CCI 500 SPP
OAL 1.255"
Dan Wesson Vigil CCO (4.25" bbl)
1289 fps, SD 4
15 Yard 5-group 1.25"

.38 Super
Sierra 125 VCHP
Factory
Tisas 1911 Stakeout (5.0" bbl)
1273 fps, SD 8
10 Yard 5-group 0.625"

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Thanks to all for this really great thread, which contains a ton of valuable 38 Super info for a newbie 38 Super reloader! Amazing to finally stumble across all this unexpectedly in the Ammo forum!

Cheers!

P.S. The new eventual "home" for ammo derived from this info will be fired from a TISAS 1911A1 Stakeout in 9mm/38 Super: can't wait to see how they perform with those 125gr Sierra/SIG jhps that are so conveniently mentioned!

 

[pbcaster45]

Well... I guess I'll start posting again! I didn't think anyone was interested. I'll try not to use data from silly race guns too!

 

[38SPL HV]

Excellent data…personally, I run a minimum of ten shot strings, makes extremes (ES/SD) more meaningful. Never owned a 38 Super…great cartridge but woefully under appreciated

 

[pbcaster45]

Here are a few loads checked for velocity today. All strings are ten-shots, 6 feet from the chronograph.

Gun: STI Edge 38 Super 5-inch bbl.

Bullet: Sierra Sig Sauer V-Crown 125 gr. JHP
Powder: VihtaVuori 3N37 7.1 grs.
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Case: Starline .38 Super
OAL: 1.215
Avg. Vel.: 1259
ES: 23
SD: 6
Recoil Spring: Dawson tool-less guide rod, 13 lb. Recoil Spring and Buffer Pad.

Same load in Super Comp brass.

Bullet: Sierra Sig Sauer V-Crown 125 gr. JHP
Powder: VihtaVuori 3N37 7.1 grs.
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Case: Starline .38 Super Comp
OAL: 1.215 (.995 with Stoney Point)
Avg. Vel.: 1249
ES: 66
SD: 18
Recoil Spring: Dawson tool-less guide rod, 13 lb. Recoil Spring and Buffer Pad.


Gun: Wilson Accu-Comp DP .38 Super

Bullet: Sierra Sig Sauer V-Crown 125 gr. JHP
Powder: VihtaVuori 3N37 7.1 grs.
Primer: Winchester Small Rifle
Case: Starline .38 Super
OAL: 1.215
Avg. Vel.: 1268 fps
ES: 25
SD: 7
Recoil Spring: 8 lbs. Wilson Shok Buff

This last load for fully supported ramped barrels only!

Bullet: Sierra Sig Sauer V-Crown 124 gr. JHP
Powder: VihtaVuori 3N37 7.9 grs.
Primer: Federal Small Rifle
Case: Starline .38 Super
OAL: 1.225 (.995 with Stoney Point)
Avg. Vel.: 1359 fps
ES: 31
SD: 9
Recoil Spring: 8 lbs. Wilson Shok Buff