.38 wadcutter velocity for defense

[Waywatcher]

I'm grappling with this thought;

What velocity is a wadcutter, dewc or hb, desired to reach to be adequate for defense? I do know that wadcutters are routinely recommended for their light recoil, but also for their penetration and full caliber hole. I know buffalo bore makes some at about 850fps which is definitely fast. How fast does typical target wadcutter go, and is it adequate for defense?

I realize there is no correct answer which is why I am asking for opinions or research or data.

I have found an accurate, controllable load that is launching a 150 grain dewc at 725fps average, which is about 175ft/lbs of energy and also makes IDPA power floor minimum of 105,000. I'm not trying to start a thread about reloads for defense, that idea has been thoroughly discussed and we make our own choices.

 

[ibewbull]

Here is an old thread

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/215478-wad-cutters-defence.html

 

[rwsmith]

Don't load.....

Don't load HBWCs hotter than warm target loads. The skirts can blow off and block the barrel.

 

[alwslate]

My standard pressure handload with 148 gr bevel base WCs clocks
820 fps out of my 1 7/8" 37-2.

 

[FPrice]

Roy Huntington wrote an article in the May/June 2014 American Handgunner on the subject of wadcutter bullets. While many of us use wadcutters in the relatively standard target shooter configuration (softer lead, lower velocities) Roy also explored some of the newer offerings from some companies that feature harder bullets loaded to higher velocities. Buffalo Bore seems to be the leader in this field. Good reading for someone interested in using these types of bullets for self-defense, hunting, or just plain plinking.

 

[gm272gs]

I guess if you're shooting a snubby, they could be good at say 900fps.

But, why would you want to punch clean holes in somebody?
I can't imagine using anything other than a jacketed hollow point for defense. They get bigger, and they don't over-penetrate.

We are talking about a true full-caliber-diameter wadcutter, here? Not a semi-wadcutter?

 

[Waywatcher]

900fps would be very fast for a 150 grain bullet from a snubby, definitely at least +P, and quite possibly +P+. Even Buffalo Bore, well known for powerful loads, does not generate 900fps from a snubby with their wadcutter load.

There are a lot of reasons why I am moving towards wadcutters for defense. First off, lead bullets can generate higher velocities than jacketed bullets when bullet weight and chamber pressure are constant. Second, a full caliber wadcutter has more terminal effectiveness than a failed-to-expand hollow point. This equates to reliability; a wadcutter will always perform to the same standard and give great penetration. Over-penetration is not a big concern, misses are. More bullets miss than hit, generally speaking. A miss is the ultimate "over-penetration."

Wadcutters help avoid misses.
Their lesser recoil compared to a snappy high velocity JHP allows for more practice, less punishment, more confidence in shot placement to avoid misses and to get good hits. Plus, they're cheaper.

Wadcutters cost less.
Cast wadcutters are very cost effective--at last tally my wadcutter loads ran about $6 per box of 50 and I use (relatively) expensive commercial cast bullets. The low cost of wadcutters allows for much more practice; practice to build skills in shot placement. I can cycle out my ammo every single range trip with no worry whatsoever for the cost.

 

[loc n load]

wadcutters

I have loaded and carried wadcutters on and off since the 70's.
I am going to stick to the cast wadcutters for now, although I have done a lot of work with inverted HBWC's.
I cast my own bullets, a wadcutter in 38, a 200 gr WC in 44 and full wadcutters in 41 and 45.
I routinely carry a 200 gr full wadcutter load in my M-24 3"RB that clocks @ 900fps.
The wadcutter will create a full caliber permanent wound channel which is highly desirable.
Having attended several post mortems I have seen the effects of various bullets going into and thru soft target medium, and the resulting damage that the projectiles did or did not produce.
I have also harvested over 50 deer ( and butchered them myself) over the past few decades with my own cast SWC loads which produce a similar type of wound channel as does the full wadcutter.
I have been the RO on several shootings where 38 wadcutters were involved and they were effective.....the bottom line is shot placement. SHOT PLACEMENT is KING.... if you are driving a full wadcutter with enough energy to penetrate clothing, bone and it cuts a full caliber wound channel thru the heart, lungs area....it is going to be most effective.
The bigger the entry wound and wound channel, the better....main reason I pack the M-24 and M-58 loaded with SWC's or full WC's. With JHP's I feel that I am going to have to drive them at 1100 fps or so to obtain reliable performance, don't have to go to that level of recoil (shot to shot recovery time), muzzle blast,muzzle flash, etc. with the WC's or SWC's

 

[kaaskop49]

The late NYPD stakeout officer Jim Cirillo never stopped experimenting with handgun bullets. In one of his later works, he espoused the .41 Magnum with a full wadcutter bullet as a most effective round for terminating hostile encounters. IIRC, his .41 WCs were not pure lead. Poster loc n load probably is more up to speed on this!

Another poster mentioned Buffalo Bore's .38 WC load at service velocity. The late gunwriter Henry M. Stebbins in his handgun book mentioned the factories produced this load pre-WWII, a WC at about 850 fps as opposed to the 750 or so of the target load.

JHPs, especially from short bbls, may not expand reliably, if at all. Ballistic gel is not a human body The full WCs do not have to.

 

[Waywatcher]

Here's a great article on the subject; I've probably read it three or four times.

The Full Charge Wadcutter

 

[vytoland]

DEWC and a S&W revolver are my preference for SD.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The HB hollow base and the BB/DE "Solid" wc design both can be used.
The solid can be pushed faster but it all comes down to the amount of recoil that you and your weapon can put up with and place shots on target in a proper manor.

My wife can only do well with a 148gr at 775 fps out of a J frame snub nose, due to the heavier recoil.

I have shot a BBwc at 888 fps but with that amount of recoil in the little J frame, I am just as well off with a 125gr Jhp at that +P speed.

If you are shooting a K frame it does not matter what you are shooting with all the extra weight to help reduce the loads recoil.
Good shooting.

 

[mrrick]

I've been using a standard wc for years, either S&B of Winchester. 148 gr. @ less than 800 fps.
As loc n load says:

SHOT PLACEMENT IS EVERYTHING!

As Col. Jeff Cooper once said,:"
A .22 short through the tear duct is better than a .44 mag. through the air."

 

[CTG_COLLECTOR]

I don't understand people's continuing fetish with .38 WC's as being a viable SD load. Decades upon decades of actual shootings have shown that FMJ/solid (non-HP) lead bullets are extremely poor stoppers in all service calibers due to the fact that such bullets don't crush tissue like modern designed expanding HP bullets do, thus leading to the very real danger of over penetration.

And for the fan-boys of ballistic gel shooting, there are several videos that show WC bullets easily sailing through 12-16+ inches of gel. No Bueno!

If you people are going to carry a revolver in 38Spl, do yourselves (and everyone around you) a favor and use a modern JHP or even pre-fragmented ammo for SD and be a responsible gun carrier and leave the dangerously over penetrating FMJ/WC/solid bullets for punching paper targets.

 

[alwslate]

I don't understand people's continuing fetish with .38 WC's as being a viable SD load.


And for ballistic gel shooting, there are several videos that show WC bullets easily sailing through 12-16+ inches of gel.

Probably because they work.
Great! This helps explain why they work.

 

[chuckfw]

In years past, I have shot many wc loads, including the lead hbwc seated backward with a gas check. Fun to play around with, but I am now in favor of the newer type of ammo such as flex tip for winter and hydrashok for summer in my .38 snubs. If you're not using a hp bullet, semi and full wad-cutter designs are typically a lot better performers than rounded fmj bullets. Their flat surface up front and sharper edges are more prone to crush and bite into tissue, clipping off expandable tissue and blood veins and leaving a blood hole behind them as they penetrate less. Hp bullets that are unexpanded have a similar effect as wad cutters in this regard.
Most fmj bullets are a poor defensive loading as a rule. An exception to this rule is for the slower and usually heavier bullets that can actually and effectively penetrate the thorax and break hip bones, such as a .45acp.

 

[NE450No2]

The higher powered full wad cutter loads that Buffalo Bore loads in 38 Special, 44 Special and 45 Colt would be most effective for self defense, IMHO.

Now when it comes to the standard 38 Special Target wadcutters, they do have their place in personal protection. For someone that cannot control more powerful loads, for what ever reason, I recommend them.

Much better to have a load in a persons gun, they have shot and practiced with, and have no fear of, than to have something that hurts their hand when they shoot.

 

[Water-Man]

Speer Gold Dot 135gr. +P
CorBon DPX Barnes 110gr. +P

These two loads are better than any WC in a 38spl snub.

 

[alwslate]

Speer Gold Dot 135gr. +P
CorBon DPX Barnes 110gr. +P

These two loads are better than any WC in a 38spl snub.

In your OPINION, right? That is unless you have some proof
other than factory ballistics taken from a test barrel that is
much longer than the 1 7/8" J frame snubby.

 

[bassgunner]

Speer Gold Dot 135gr. +P
CorBon DPX Barnes 110gr. +P

These two loads are better than any WC in a 38spl snub.

If you can find them. I can load 158gr LSWC or 148gr DEWC all day long. An empty gun does no good either if you can't find ammunition. That said, I am carrying 148gr DEWC BB loaded to 780 fps out of my 642. I have no doubt that it would do the job if I ever needed it to. These same loads push 900 fps out of my 4 inch.