.380 ACP: Flat-Point FMJ vs JHP

[Echo40]

I'm long overdue to rotate the defensive ammo I carry in my Ruger LCP so I've been shopping for ammo, but after years of carrying .40 S&W as a primary carry gun, the prices on defensive .380 ACP seem outright offensive.
For years I carried some flavor of 90gr XTP because that's what seemed to consistently perform well in Gel Tests in terms of achieving minimal FBI Specifications. Unfortunately, the cost of such ammo seems to average out at 1¢ per grain, as the average 90gr XTP seems to cost 90¢ per round, which just seems like too much for minimum acceptable performance after years of carrying .40 S&W which obviously offers peak performance for a fraction of the price.
Nevertheless, the Ruger LCP has become a mainstay in my EDC rotation for its lightweight, small size, and extreme concealability, so I need to keep it fed.

Upon watching many .380 ACP ammo tests on YouTube, I've pretty much arrived at the conclusion that the vast majority of JHP ammo performs poorly, either completely failing to expand and therefore essentially functioning as an overpriced FMJ or otherwise expanding perfectly yet only penetrating 8-10" in Gel. Meanwhile, flat-nosed FMJ seems to perform much better, penetrating up to 19" in gel with minimal risk of collateral damage.
So I'm really struggling to convince myself that it's worth paying up to a dollar or more for JHP ammo in exchange for minimum acceptable performance at best, with carefully selected ammunition.

Thoughts?

 

[Denverd0n]

For the reasons you mentioned, I have only been using flat point ammo in .380 for a couple of years now.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I am dubious about getting adequate penetration with any .380 hollow point load. Shot placement and adequate penetration are more important, MUCH more important, than wound diameter. I would also go with the RN-FP or even straight-up RN FMJ rather than a HP in that caliber. My opinion, for what that is worth to you.

 

[Outpost75]

The Winchester 95 Flatnose FMJ is my ONLY .380 ammo. Runs in my P230, M1934, and Ruger original version LCP.

 

[Cphobes]

Thankfully the choice is yours, carry what you think is best.

I think there are several 380 JHP's that work consistently well. Speed is king for them.

Precision one tested well years ago, underwood's xtp is good and the new federal VHP looks to do well though it's a newer round.

Will it ever match 9mm for consistency? I don't think so but then again there's plenty of 9mm JHP that fails just as bad.

One can go dizzy watching ballistics tests on YouTube nowadays…

 

[TJm15.38]

I'm shooting FMJ bullets of 95 grains or higher. My handloads are Hornady 100 grain FMJ. I figure a HP bullet will not expand at the velocities out of the short barrel Glock 42 and probably won't out of the CZ-83 which is just short of four inches. Think it's best to go with penetration versus expansion in the .380 ACP.

 

[rwsmith]

I only have three JHP ammo types that I use in .380 that I trust to perform. I don't see a problem with a little less than 12" of penetration if they expand reliably, I say >10". I think, though, that the best round for .380 is the Lehigh Extreme Defense rounds with the Philip's head point on them. I have yet to buy any.

 

[Imissedagain]

All the bullets below, are very accurate, in our seven 380s.
The official, concealed caliber, of the Conch Republic.
Penn PC 100gr, 120gr and 115gr XTP.
BE or N320.
I have Penns, at 115gr, that look like little H&G 68s.

While some have a bad Rep, both of the S&Walther PPKs pistols, post recall, are very accurate, nice triggers and reliable.
The stainless is carried, safety off, and the blued, for range use.

 

[rockquarry]

Forget YouDupe; spend your time shooting a variety of ammos and use what shoots best for you.

 

[jakerudy]

Maybe I just bought into the hype but for 380 I have settled on the Underwood Extreme Defender. It's reliable in my Colt Mustang and the theory of the bullet performance is interesting. It's expensive but when I consider the amount of money I've spent in this industry the cost difference is kind of a mouse fart in a tornado.

 

[undy]

I run Buffalo Bore's 95Gr +P JHP in my Colt Pocketlite. It ramps up the .380's pathetic +/- 800 FPS to +/- 1100 FPS. It has NO PROBLEM meeting the FBI's 12" to 18" spec for Gel penetration with great expansion. I would NOT recommend it for Tupper Ware pistols though. Colt says it's OK in the Pocketlite as long as it's not a steady diet.

 

[Echo40]

All the bullets below, are very accurate, in our seven 380s.
The official, concealed caliber, of the Conch Republic.
Penn PC 100gr, 120gr and 115gr XTP.
BE or N320.
I have Penns, at 115gr, that look like little H&G 68s.

While some have a bad Rep, both of the S&Walther PPKs pistols, post recall, are very accurate, nice triggers and reliable.
The stainless is carried, safety off, and the blued, for range use.

View attachment 785076

View attachment 785078

The S&W PPK/S-1 was my first carry gun. Mine was absurdly reliable, could be fired from literally any position/orientation (even upside down) yet would still feed, and was incredibly accurate.
Unfortunately, it just felt too heavy to carry comfortably in Summer, so after 2 years, I decided to switch to the Ruger LCP.

 

[66fan]

All the bullets below, are very accurate, in our seven 380s.
The official, concealed caliber, of the Conch Republic.
Penn PC 100gr, 120gr and 115gr XTP.
BE or N320.
I have Penns, at 115gr, that look like little H&G 68s.

While some have a bad Rep, both of the S&Walther PPKs pistols, post recall, are very accurate, nice triggers and reliable.
The stainless is carried, safety off, and the blued, for range use.

View attachment 785076

View attachment 785078

Nice pair of Walthers. One of my EDC guns is a 70's Walther PP with various .380 ammo in FMJ. After the ammo shortage I just never sought out any over priced .380. May search for a new defensive round soon. My wife keeps that gun on her side of the bed but I keep my 2 1/2 inch model 66-2 by me daily. Never leave home without it! Thanks S&W forum.

 

[9Mary7]

I've been using Norma 90 grain Non Xpanding Defense. It functions flawlessly in Taurus TCP, Ruger LCP, Beretta and Sig .380s. 1100+ fps.

 

[Abnormal]

I'm long overdue to rotate the defensive ammo I carry in my Ruger LCP so I've been shopping for ammo, but after years of carrying .40 S&W as a primary carry gun, the prices on defensive .380 ACP seem outright offensive.
For years I carried some flavor of 90gr XTP because that's what seemed to consistently perform well in Gel Tests in terms of achieving minimal FBI Specifications. Unfortunately, the cost of such ammo seems to average out at 1¢ per grain, as the average 90gr XTP seems to cost 90¢ per round, which just seems like too much for minimum acceptable performance after years of carrying .40 S&W which obviously offers peak performance for a fraction of the price.
Nevertheless, the Ruger LCP has become a mainstay in my EDC rotation for its lightweight, small size, and extreme concealability, so I need to keep it fed.

Upon watching many .380 ACP ammo tests on YouTube, I've pretty much arrived at the conclusion that the vast majority of JHP ammo performs poorly, either completely failing to expand and therefore essentially functioning as an overpriced FMJ or otherwise expanding perfectly yet only penetrating 8-10" in Gel. Meanwhile, flat-nosed FMJ seems to perform much better, penetrating up to 19" in gel with minimal risk of collateral damage.
So I'm really struggling to convince myself that it's worth paying up to a dollar or more for JHP ammo in exchange for minimum acceptable performance at best, with carefully selected ammunition.

Thoughts?

IMHO, I believe flat point is crap and likely made because some were dropped on the floor when still mailable and they didn't want to put them through the recycle process. The stuff is unstable because of the flat nose. JHP may not be the most cost effective but the design makes it more accurate. And that, to me, makes it more cost effective. I reload my own and have tested both extensively for myself and not for public consumption. The hollow tip, according to my studies, creates a wind pocket that helps stabilize the bullet. Flat points tend to tumble in flight because of the flat top surface. I just get more accuracy from JHP than any other. But JHP tend to be more expensive too.

 

[Shibadog]

In today's world of tiny 9's if a person's not comfy with .380 power, step up to a tiny 9. Yes, recoil will be more, yes, they are slightly bigger and a bit heavier. Ya pays your $$ and makes ur choice. Whatever you choose make it something YOU can shoot well. Shot placement is more important than caliber. A hit from a .22 thumps a miss with a .44 every time. If you can't hit, it doesn't matter what you shoot. If you can hit a properly placed round from pretty much anything CAN resolve the situation.

 

[BB57]

The testing published on the internet and on YouTube can help form some basic impressions, but it doesn't always account for or point out some of the important variables. You need to know what your load will do in your gun.

I started doing my own ballistics gel testing when Clear Ballistics started producing their clear ballistics gel about 14-15 years ago as it made real world range testing a lot more practical.

There are a lot of misconceptions out there about .380 ACP hollow point performance, and .380 ACP terminal performance in general.

1) Hollow points like the 90 gr XTP will reliably expand and penetrate 12" if you can get a muzzle velocity of at least 1000 fps. That normally takes a longer barrel or at least 3.5" (Walther PPK or PPK/S length). A 3.8" Beretta, a 3.9" PP, or a 4" Baby Rock are even better.

I've hand loaded 90 gr XTPs to velocities in the 975 fps range for a Kimber Micro and expansion is about 60 percent reliable, falling to about 40 percent at 150 fps, so it drops off quickly.

But... when an XTP fails to expand, it penetrates as if it were an FMJ. What a .380 ACP 90 gr XTP will never do, at least in a pistol length barrel is under penetrate. In other words, you either get good hollow point performance, all or the time, or some of the time, or none of the time and you get FMJ performance when it doesn't expand.

2) 90 gr Gold Dots and V Crowns are better choices for short barrel .380 ACPs.

3) There are a few hollow points out there that are designed for short 2.7" barrels and lower velocities that will under penetrate in a longer barrel. For example the Winchester Defense 95 gr JHP will under penetrate at around 9" in a 3.8" barrel but will give 11-11.5" in a 2.7" barrel.

That 11" is still "under penetration" but realistically in a face to face armed citizen self defense shoot, 10" or more penetration will be plenty. If you are shooting fleeing assailants or shooting assailants from odd angles, you're going to need a really good lawyer and he'll be focused on getting you a good plea bargain or reduced sentence

4) But as a general rule, .380 ACP hollow point failures are failures to expand, particularly in short barrels, and act like FMJs.

5) Flat point FMJs actually penetrate deeper than round nose FMJs. A flat nose FMJ fired from a long barrel will likely punch clear through 32" of ballistic gel. A round nose FMJ from a long barrel will probably penetrate 25-27". An FMJ from a short barrel will penetrate almost as far.

In both cases there's a sharply elevated risk of the bullet passing through the assailant and tagging a by stander. That is after all one of the major reasons LEOs carry hollow points - and they have the protections of qualified immunity, department provided attorneys and leniency from the courts. You have none of that.

Choose responsibly.

 

[alwslate]

I use Remington 95 gr FMJ RN ammo in my Ruger LCP because it chronos a bit faster than other brands. Winchester 95 gr FN FMJ is the slowest domestic brand of 95 gr FMJ I have ever chronographed. HPs out of the LCP aren't going to expand or penetrate and may not feed.

 

[Doug M.]

LAPD approves ONE .380 load for off duty/BUG use as far as I know; I can't recall what it is. I have little faith in adequate penetration/expansion from most .380 HPs in my G42, so I carry the Black Hills version of the Lehigh load. The vast majority of my carry ammo is from Black Hills. It is unfortunate that they can no longer get the all copper HP.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

I have the LCP MAX, G42 and a 365-380. I really don't care what bullet I shove into the various magazines, as long as they work. Some HP's hang up in the Glock. Some loads won't go fully into battery in the LCP and the Sig eats anything all day long. Also the Sig is the softest shooting, tightest grouping of the three.

With maybe 1,000 various rounds through the LCP I've settled on Blazer brass FMJ. The why is dependability, end of story. I tend to use FMJ in the G42 as well.

The Sig I feel comfortable with any JHP I've ever shot in it. Is one really better than another? Don't know and might not care either. Placement is my personal goal along with accurate follow up shots. Admittedly FTX seems to find their way into the mags but I spend a month each summer in NJ and that load is legal there.

 

[flagaman1950]

Sgt. Buzzard, your G42 gives feeding issues with HP, kind of surprised at that. Hornady HP ammo has been very good in mine. That said, I still only use RN as I prefer the penetration. Also, I can practice more as the ammo is less expensive. I'm retired and on fixed income so try to watch my spending.

Do you feel the Sig recoil is enough less that it has a positive effect on your accuracy or do you think ammo choice could be the factor, just curious.

 

[Rule3]

This is years old but he did one of the best reviews on ammo for short pistols

It really doesn't matter, shot placement is King
Back to the Popcorn

 

[Cphobes]

2) 90 gr Gold Dots and V Crowns are better choices for short barrel .380 ACPs.


That 11" is still "under penetration" but realistically in a face to face armed citizen self defense shoot, 10" or more penetration will be plenty. If you are shooting fleeing assailants or shooting assailants from odd angles, you're going to need a really good lawyer and he'll be focused on getting you a good plea bargain or reduced sentence

Lots of great info in that post, I'd only comment on two points.

It seems the GD and V Crowns don't perform as well as some XTP out of short barrels. At least from what I've found. Though GD performs well out of longer barrels. For me I've gong to XTP in the BG2.0 and use the GD in the 380EZ.

I agree short barrel 380's are not your precision and/or long range option. Self-Defenders generally aren't snipers.

Again great info, thanks for sharing.

 

[Cphobes]

This is years old but he did one of the best reviews on ammo for short pistols

It really doesn't matter, shot placement is King
Back to the Popcorn

Yes, and precision one XTP can be hand for $0.60/rd online, though I'd likely buy the +P flavor based on more recent testing with the BG2.0

 

[Imissedagain]

In over 3K of TFMJ or the Penns, in my earlier post, non have tumbled.
I shoot mostly at 20-25 yards indoors, offhand and SA.
2" groups are common, SA, with the Walthers.
Have not tried the Sig P238HD, with some experimental stocks, yet
Marked with blue dot.
Palm swell, thumb rest, 7 round mag, with pinky rest removed.
Feels good enough for F Class.
L-R, P238, P238HD, LCP and Walther.

Have not shot the Penn115gr, mini H&G 68s at distance yet.

 

[Phenix]

For the reasons you mentioned, I have only been using flat point ammo in .380 for a couple of years now.

The Flat Point FMJ seems to be the single best compromise.
I always have them in my Bodyguard 2.0, but sometimes when I load the magazines I make every other round a Jacketed Hollow Point.

 

[Imissedagain]

I was hoping that Sig would make a longer grip frame for the P238s.
Something like the Colt Plus II, for the HD models. The Legion model did not fit that wish.

 

[Sgt. Buzzard]

Sgt. Buzzard, your G42 gives feeding issues with HP, kind of surprised at that. Hornady HP ammo has been very good in mine. That said, I still only use RN as I prefer the penetration. Also, I can practice more as the ammo is less expensive. I'm retired and on fixed income so try to watch my spending.

Do you feel the Sig recoil is enough less that it has a positive effect on your accuracy or do you think ammo choice could be the factor, just curious.

Different guns of the same brand and model may or may not work with any given ammunition. My G 42 had trouble feeding the first round of a couple of different HP loads. If you loaded one by hand in the tube it would fire the rest of the magazine but not using the slide release or slingshot method. This is unacceptable to me. Hornady FTX would feed but with FMJ's there's never any question. I've tied all five of my magazines, same result.

I'm perfectly happy with any round any time. You like penetration, I like placement, both are valid objectives, but foremost they must feed.
HP's are not allowed as carry in NJ. FTX are deemed OK. I don't worry I just carry the FMJ and am done with it. I'm confident in my ability to place the rounds center mass under difficult conditions.

I'm better with the Sig. It's 15.7 Oz. to the Glocks 12.17Oz. It also has a better trigger and sights. But I don't like the extra 3.5Oz. So, better shooting and twice the capacity vs. lighter carry. The length and height are very similar but the Sig is slightly wider.they both hide well.

I've had a G42 since they first came out. The 365 is new. So there's familiarity with the Glock. As a geezer that's hard to overlook. Plus I love J frames which I've carried for 53 years. And the 340PD is lighter than both. But sometimes you want flat.

 

[Echo40]

Well, I ended up buying a box of Winchester 95gr FN-FMJ for now just to have something loaded.

The LCP mostly serves as a BUG to either my M&P40 Shield or M&P40 Compact — both of which are loaded with Winchester 165gr Ranger-T — so the most likely scenario in which I would even use the LCP is if I had either expended all of the rounds in either gun plus 2 spare mags.

Ultimately, I might just have to consider swapping out the LCP for a BUG which can be more cheaply fed, like an LCP chambered in .22LR or some sort of Micro-9 because I honestly cannot get over how stupidly expensive .380 ACP JHP ammo is.
Honestly, in a world in which I can get substantially more capable defensive cartridges for a fraction of the price, it just makes more sense in the long run to swallow the loss for a new pistol than to keep paying through the nose for ammo which can't even be completely relied upon to function as intended.

 

[Riposte1]

I run Buffalo Bore's 95Gr +P JHP in my Colt Pocketlite. It ramps up the .380's pathetic +/- 800 FPS to +/- 1100 FPS. It has NO PROBLEM meeting the FBI's 12" to 18" spec for Gel penetration with great expansion. I would NOT recommend it for Tupper Ware pistols though. Colt says it's OK in the Pocketlite as long as it's not a steady diet.

I fiddled with the .380 from the time I was a late teen until I was about 30.

I've had PPK/s, Llama (locked breech), Colt Mustang, and some others which are more or less for testing ammo or are interesting.

The old Lyman #43 manual, which I started on, had a load of a 121 gr RN at right at 1000 fps - I bought that mold and loaded the bullet for my PPK/s - the PPK with factory .380 kicks more than a Combat Commander in .45 and that thing sure let me know but it was manageable when I was young and dumb. Kind of too bad the DA trigger was unuseable

I got an offer to trade for a Satin Nickel Combat Commander in .45 so I took it. From then I moved to the Llama since it was locked breech - it was also a pice of junk. I did some tricks I had picked up in building 1911s and it did shoot OK. I branched out into 100 gr Speer JHPs, Sierra 115 gr JHPs and a new Lyman mold I bought that throws 133 gr. SWCs, somewere along the way I picked up a Lee mold that throws 105 gr SWC but I like the meplat on the 133 better.

In that Llama I got the 115 gr Sierra up to 1050, and the 133 SWC up to ~1000 - even then it didn't kick as much as the old PPK/s with the 121 at 1000. But I do think it was beating up the gun.

Traded that on a Colt Mustang - all of the loads shot great in the Mustang but they were too much and broke the ring on the hammer.

At that point I replaced the hammer and gave the gun to a friend to carry as a hide-out. I gave up on the .380 as it will never be a 9mm and a 9mm isn't enough gun for me to stake my life on.

That said I still have a couple of .380s I just won't carry one.

Here is one that interests me but I won't be shooting hot ammo through it! It was made in 1919.



It is a Remington M-51. Talk about thin - too bad it isn't a .32!

Riposte