.380 load (Calling Erich)

Absolutely outstanding thread. I suggest it be Sticky'd.

Excellent information as well as an excellent example of how to conduct civil discourse.
 
A question for Erich, please

Based on your experience and expertise, what role do you see for the "Mag-Safe" type ammo in .380 ACP ? This would be from a short barrel back up gun type pistol.

Thank you.
 
Hi Fred,

I've no experience in working on shootings with MagSafe rounds. I would be concerned about adequacy of penetration with MagSafe, Glaser, or other pre-fragmented rounds. These are not something I'd ever choose to use to protect myself.

Back in the late '80s, though, I was totally sold on the concept of "energy-transfer" being essential to "stopping power." (I'm still a bit resentful of that.) In every shooting case that I've worked on and learned enough about to talk about, the actual mechanism for effecting a cessation of aggression seemed to be a lot more mundane: a hole through something vital that caused either the shutdown of the circulatory system (leading to oxygen deprivation) or else the shutdown of the central nervous system.

The .380 is certainly capable of making such a hole, but since the bullets it launches are so light and slow (relatively speaking), my main concern with these little guns is ensuring that the bullets can be placed precisely (targeting the specific vitals - I recommend studying human anatomy to be sure exactly where an attacker's heart/aorta is situated and to be aware of how the skull protects the brain: Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body ) and that those bullets don't stop for some reason before they make the required hole in the targeted vital area.

Hope you have a great weekend - everyone stay safe!
cheers, erich
 
TennTony said:
Absolutely outstanding thread. I suggest it be Sticky'd.
Click to expand...
I second the motion.

This thread showcases the different philosophies regarding the use of FMJ vs. JHP ammo in .380 ACP, as well as the pitfalls of +P loads, in such a way that allows people to make a more informed decision. The cordial nature of this thread, as well as Erich's insights based on his unique opportunity to study the .380 due to his profession, also makes it a most enjoyable read. The links to online gel tests are invaluable IMO. Questions regarding the .380 are so common that a .380 sticky, as well as .38 spl. makes a lot of sense.

I also would like to add that, thanks to a generous ammo donation from BigRich315, I've fairly recently added the test results for four more .380 JHP loads to the Perma-Gel Test Results thread.
 
Thanks, Erich for the information

I know that the .380 is weak, and I prefer my J-frame S&W's. But we cannot forget that the .380 auto generally presents a smaller pocket package than a J-frame. Bullet placement is always important. I like the .45 ACP in both my S&W 325 and in my 1911 pistols. Of course, these weapons are harder to hide in a hot weather environment.

Thanks for your insight on the Mag-Safe.
 
Great Thread

Many thanks to all who contributed their findings to this discussion. Special thanks to Erich for sharing his experiences on a subject that many of us have pondered. My findings are limited to the only 380 that I own, an older Walther PPK-S. I only use it when discreet(no print) carry is required. I bring it on range visits and practice with my reloads of hard cast(lynotype) 92gr Lyman bullets. I end the sessin with 2 mags of WWB flat point 95gr FMJ. It helps to clean out the lead from the barrel. I was very pleased when Winchester changed their USA load to flat point from round nose since the larger meplat cuts a wider channel and takes less detours within the torso. It has now become my only factory load for both practice and carry. And, the price is reasonable. For me, experimentation is not an option, but I found this thread to be very interesting. It should be worthy of a sticky! Again, thanks to all
 
In sales, we have a trilogy saying: FAB. It stands for FEATURE, ADVANTAGE, BENEFIT.

This thread has extolled the features of different ammo, the advantages of having or not having penetration, etc. What I have NOT read are the Benefits.

Specifically, why are we carrying weapons at all? The short answer is to STOP A THREAT! We are not there to KILL someone. that may occur in the act of stopping a threat, but it should not be the object of the shooting. If proven by an attorney that it is, you will be tried for murder, quite possibly.

Therefore, my question about the BENEFITS is this:

Will a .380 in ANY ammo configuration stop an assailant when they are shot Center Mass? I.E., will the gun do what it is intended to do...STOP A THREAT?

Your answer may dictate whether or not I throw the new Taurus PT 738 in the trash can. No pressure on you though! LOL!!
 
Howdy GOV5,

You have an excellent point. And if you are familiar with my experimentation with the 380 acp you will know that I worked to make the 380 a better stopper. Some of that info is documented in this thread.

I hot rodded my Colt Gov't Model 380 to the point of getting too much penetration with a 120 grain flat nosed bullet. Trying to make a 380 into a 9mm is not the right approach. Along the way I found the Taurus 709 Slim which is virtually the same size as my Colt. This gives me a more powerful cartridge in the same sized package.

I feel that the Taurus is a small enough gun when I want ultra deep concealment with better stopping power.

The Taurus is rarely my primary carry gun as I tend to carry a M&P 9c in the Kansas heat under a Hawaiian shirt and a 1911 45 acp the rest of the year.

I have never been comfortable with the stopping power of the 380 and that is why I insist my wife and daughters carry at least 38 special or 9mm.
 
In my limited exposure to .380, I would say no.

As Erich states, proper bullet placement is key. If you want to carry a .380 as a primary weapon, I don't believe that you can reliably stop a full sized man with any certainty. As a secondary weapon, it could be OK at very short range.

I shot my new (never fired) North American Arms .380 Guardian the other day at a dark indoor range. At 7 yards, I kept all of the rounds in a vital zone, but the pattern was poor. The sights are non-existent on this pistol and with a 10-12 + pound trigger pull, these groups were nothing special.

I wouldn't trust this caliber as my only weapon. A "j" frame S&W is much better even though it is not an easy weapon to shoot with an aluminum frame.
 
admittedly I've not read this whole thread, a bit long. However, returning from the range; I'm loading a Hornady 90gr.XPT ahead of 3.2grs. of Titegroup, and getting 931 vel.
at 9' from a Kel-tec and 960 from a Bursa Thunder.
Bullet expansion from the K-T in Ballistic Technology's "test tube" (a green waxy material) is .470". Penetration in this test medium from what I've been able to deduce is about the equiv. of 11-12" in ballistic gel.
I'm trusting this will work for social purposes but hope I never have to find out. If it doesn't expand, then it'll perform as a hard ball.
rev. :)
 
GOV5, don't aim center mass. Aim for the upper chest. A .380 through the aorta will start the shut down process, or end hostilities immediately. Cartridges like the .357 magnum, .45 ACP ect. will, at times, turn marginal hits into stops whereas the .380 and other mouse gun cartridges are much less likely to do so. Carry a .380 as a BUG, or when nothing bigger will work.
 
when they are shot Center Mass
Click to expand...

"Center Mass" is not a helpful construct. To be sure of effecting a handgun stop, as many of us have mentioned up-thread and as FredBart and flop-shank point out, the bullet has to hit something that either results in an immediate failure of the upper body to receive oxygenated blood or else the upper central nervous system.

You can shoot someone in the stomach with a .500 S&W Magnum and still have a failure to stop. You shoot perforate his aorta with a .25 ACP, he's not going to be coming at you any more.

Aim for specific vitals - as I always preach - study Gray's Anatomy and learn to target the heart/aorta and the brain.

Gray, Henry. 1918. Anatomy of the Human Body
 
125gr hardcast in 380, Too heavy?

Hi everyone,
I'm new to the forum. This thread on the .380 interested me enough to join. Thank you for all the interesting reading/info and opinions. I've read the past postings on this thread, which go back quite aways. Erich, I'd especially like to thank you for your expertise.
My question is, I loaded up some 380s using a 125gr hard cast TC bullet from a Saeco mold. I've loaded them with W231. The bullet was supposed to be 122gr, but drops out of the mold at 125gr using wheelweights. Lyman list data for 120gr lead. I've dropped the charge for the heavier bullet. I haven't chronoed the round yet, but functions quite well through my LCP. Lyman list pressure for the 120gr as 15,800 C.U.P, and I imagine I'm running somewhere around there. Lyman list vel. for the 120gr at 946. Accuracy is good.
Am I out in left field with this load? Is this bullet really too heavy for the 380?
Shootmup
 
Hi shootmup,

As you can see from my comments up thread I've experimented with a similar bullet, weight, and velocity. It appears to be too much of a good thing, too much penetration.

Good luck.
 
125gr XTP

Hey, thanks for the reply KScowboy. I've also loaded up and shot some 125gr XTPs. The problem with this combo is case bulge. Upon trying many different brands of cases, Winchester seems to have the least taper = less bulge. I used a Lee factory crimp die which sizes the loaded round for uniformity to deal with the bulge. I was concerned the resultant bullet base deformation would affect accuracy, but they actually shot fairly well out of my LCP. I loaded using W231, This is a fairly serious round, but I doubt effective expansion with .380 velocity. Probably not much different than ball ammo.
shootmup
 
shootmup,

I considered using a copper plated hollow point that hopefully would be soft enough to expand. As I found a 9mm that was the same size as my 380 I just switched to that rather than magnumize the 380.

As I've already loaded the hollow points I might as well shoot them some day to see what happens.
 
BreakerDan said:
Third the motion.

380 hollowpoints are not reliable expanders anyway.
You need all the penetration that you can get with mouse
guns. Thats why people in the know avoid the 110 gr JHP in the
38 spl even. The 380 is less than a hot 110gr 38, and they are notorious
for insufficient penetration. Ball is more reliable in pocket guns also and
is much cheaper. If I was carrying a 25,32,380, it would have nothing
but the heaviest full metal jacket I could get in it. Shot placement
is key, not wonder bullets. My humble opinion, if you need a mouse
gun, get a 38 snub.
Click to expand...

One well placed shot trumps spray and pray
 
Nice to see an old dead thread that still has a lot of relevance be resurrected...

Although my experience with .380s goes back to the late 1970s I naver carried one until recently. I used to be a commercial loader/reloader and made an identical round to wath CorBon now sells as their 90 grain +P JHP with the Sierra bullet. Found several hundred rounds that had never sold back in 2014 and ended up buying a Kahr P380 to just shoot them up in.

Was so pleased with the combination it replaced the KelTec 32 I had been carrying when carrying a standard size gun was impossible/impractical.

Carried the 90 grain load for a couple of years until I saw a video on the Underwood ammo with the Lehigh fluted solid copper bullets at significantly higher velocity and now use that ammo.

So what is everyone else using now...still ball?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F5rPTHcrmg&t=677s[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTf7dHOfLi4[/ame]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40&t=458s[/ame]



Bob
 
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I'll throw in my two cents here. Best 380 ACP round I've seen hands down is the Hornaday XTP bullet. Hornaday, Fiocchi, HPR, and Precision One load them. The XTP expands very little (only .43" or so), but penetrate to 12"-15", even from 2.5" barrels.
 
I usually avoid posting in necrothreads, but this is one of the best 380 threads I've read.
I've owned 380's in the past...classics like the Browning 1910/55 and a couple others. Shot them enough to know that the 9mm does just about everything I need a pistol to do, things a 380 can't.
I did have a P3AT for special occasions, but it was my only 380 for a few years.
Then, the Israeli surplus Beretta 84's showed up at attractive prices. I always wanted an 84 or a Browning BDA when I was younger, but couldn't swing the price.
I ordered up a near new looking Beretta 84F from CDI sales, for $279.
It would just be a Range gun, I thought. Take it out a few times to try it out and experience the pistol I wanted so long ago...the maybe trade for something at the gun show.
A Range Trip changed that plan. I found that the 84F shot really well in my hand. Great instinctive pointing, and I can hit the 10" steel plates my club has, at absurd distances for a 380.
Thus, I often find myself grabbing the Beretta for ccw or HD use, even though I have other suitable choices.
My 84 has been 100% reliable, feeding all the popular JHP choices. For serious carry, I load with Underwood +P XTP. This load is sizzling in the longer barrel of the 84F, and gives excellent accuracy.
I still have the P3AT...it get FMJ standard loads.
 
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