.380 vs .38spl...

I was saying it "points" naturally for me. I can't shoot like Hickok45 but I do OK. I'm not going to hit the gong at 80 yds or at least not very often. I'm talking out to 10 yds, not 80. But in real life I suspect we're talking a few feet to across the room distance. Who gets the first hit on the other guy will probably be the "winner". I shoot the LCP a bit more accurately than the LCR. I'm one of the strange guys that actually likes shooting the LCP. But I think in terms of getting a fast, good purchase on the gun drawn from concealment when I look down the barrel-forget the sights-I'm more likely to get a first shot center mass hit at 7 yards with the snubbie. It is very easy for me to grip the LCP so it isn't aligned in my hand to be on target when raised to a firing position. A lot of training would help this and most of the time I can grip it and come up on target but it is much easier, more natural for me with the LCR. Having said this I frequently carry the LCP if I have to pocket carry due to how I had to dress. Bottom line isn't caliber wars but which platform will allow you to get the first hit center mass from draw while carrying concealed.
 
rwsmith I forgot to "confess". I also have a LCR in .22lr and I shoot it often. The trigger is smooth but 2-3lbs heavier than the .357. I shoot tighter groups with it inspite of the heavy trigger. This is a great trainer for the .357. I'v been shooting Freedom Munitions .38 reloads and I don't think my .357 likes them. But I'm starting to reload and hopefully I can workup a load it likes better. I really encourage a .22lr snubbie trainer for improving .38 snubbie shooting-YMMV
 
I carry both J-frames and a LCP on a regular basis.

The LCP is very easy to conceal, easy to carry and as much as I hate to admit it I shoot it a bit more accurately than my j frames.....but...

I carry my 442 most of the time. I like the simplicity of a revolver and I think the 38+p is a slightly better round overall

I carry extra ammo but doubt there will ever be time for reloading until a fight is over...so a toss up there...

Most important to me is if things get bad, hand to hand-rolling on the ground bad, I think a revolver has the edge in reliability.
 
Honestly the only time I carry my M&P bodyguard 380 is when I'm out walking, cutting the grass or checking the mail. The other times I'm either packing my 642 J frame or 4" mod 10 38spl.
 
Below are two post from another forum I posted last year regarding testing the LCP, LCR, Glock 43 and later a Glock 26. I was surprised at the results as to how well the LCP did.

"I did a test today to determine the difference among these handguns in terms of practical accuracy. The "test" was shooting at 10" paper plates. Ten rounds with each gun at 3 yards and at 7 yards. I was at a commercial range so I couldn't draw from a holster or concealment. I started from a ready position with finger off the trigger, pushed the gun forward placing the finger on the trigger as I did so and firing as the gun punched out and the front sight was on the plate. I was not target shooting or shooting for groups. The LCP feels like a DA trigger and of course the LCR is DA. So both these triggers I began the pull as soon as the finger was on the trigger. My Glock 43 has a much lighter and shorter trigger so I didn't begin pressing the trigger until the front sight was on the target. I had assumed the 43 would easily out perform the LCR, and LCP. Not so. The LCP had all 20 rounds on the plate but 2 shots were close to missing the plate. The LCR had 19 rounds with one about 1/2" off the plate. The groups on both Rugers were pretty good and about the same. The 43 grouped tighter than the Rugers with all 20 rounds on the plate. But in practical terms a BG would have been in a world of hurt regardless of which of the three guns I used. Of course I'm not discussing caliber wars or capacity. The LCR is 5 shots with the LCP and 43 having 8 rounds. However at the end of the test I shot a cylinder of Speer Gold Dot .357 135gr short barrel which produces around 300 foot pounds of energy. Also there is the issue of getting a quick combat grip that produces a reasonable sight picture and the LCP takes a lot more practice for me than the LCR or 43 to do so. But bottom line the LCP performed just as well as the Glock 43 and LCR. I have confidence in all three to perform if needed. I will repeat these test again and extend the range to 10 yards. I suspect the 43 will perform noticeably better than the LCR or LCP at that range with me behind the wheel-YMMV. And once again I am amazed at the performance of the LCP."

"This was my unscientific test of "practical accuracy" for SD purposes previously shot at 3 yards and 7 yards. See LCP Custom, LCR .357 and Glock 43 Comparisons (the thread is midway down this page). My purpose wasn't to compare calibers, or capacity or speed/accuracy for follow up shots. I wanted to determine how well the LCP would do at various realistic SD distances with the first shot. Previously the target was 10" paper plates at 3 yards and 7 yards. The LCP was just as "effective" for SD purposes as the LCR and Glock 43. This time I shot 10" paper plates at 10-11 yards and added a Glock 26 into the mix. I shot 15 rounds with each gun. The LCR shooting standard velocity .38 had 13 hits and 2 misses. The LCP, Glock 43 and Glock 26 all scored 15 hits, no misses. The Glock 43 grouped a bit better than the LCP and the Glock 26 grouped rather well for the type of shooting for the test-see prior test for description of method of shooting. No surprise the 26 was the most "accurate" and easiest to shoot. The continued surprise was how well the tiny LCP did compared to what many consider serious SD pistols. For practical purposes Mr. Paper Plate was in the same world of hurt whether it was a Glock 26 shooting at him or the little bitty LCP! I am not suggesting that a LCP is as good or appropriate SD handgun as a Glock 26 or a ............(fill in the blank) but the little rascal performs adequately that I'm not uncomfortable relying on it. When I can carry a 9mm instead of the .380 I will-well sometimes as I get lazy and the LCP is so easy to carry. The test also showed I shoot the LCP better than the LCR. I think the trigger on the LCP is shorter, lighter and easier to hit with as the distance increases. The LCP has significant increased capacity over the LCR (3 rounds) and it looks to me I have to shoot the GD .357 135gr short barrel to get significantly better ballistics over the LCR shooting .38+P. I'm a descent shot but not an impressively good one. But I've concluded from the tests it probably doesn't matter what I carry. I can hit Mr Bad Paper Plate as long as he's not shooting back."

But the point I was trying to make in this discussion isn't how well the LCP shoots but can you grip it appropriately from concealment and get off an accurate first shot without having to adjust the gun in you hand. For me a snubbie is easier and more consistent than the LCP. I think a Glock 42 would be easy but at that size I would carry the 43. I carry all the guns I did the test with depending upon weather, clothing, where I'm going what i had for breakfest.
 
Malfunction resistance

I guess if I boil all the fat off my reasoning for feeling more confidence carrying 38/357 j frames it's that in a close contact self defense fight, I feel that a slide being grabbed or otherwise pushed out of battery is more likely to cause a malfunction. I know that a revolver cylinder can be stopped from rotating by grasping it, and twisting the revolver in the opposite direction of cylinder rotation while pulling hard on the trigger may help get the shot fired anyway, but after some grappling with a pistol slide a round could be partially fed/extracted/ jammed in the process and require further action. Once the revolver is ripped back from a grab attempt it will be more likely to be instantly ready for firing, where as the semiauto may require clearing a malfunction.
I guess the other reason is bad a primer is fixed by another quick pull of the trigger if it ain't your last round.
 
.380 acp CAN be an effective SD round, specifically through small mouse gun barrels.. But, it's a select group of commercial loads.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts&t=579s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOwCXXpEP50&t=6s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOwCXXpEP50[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDsPgyhI7To"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDsPgyhI7To[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbT7OJlRbkM"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbT7OJlRbkM[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F79UUxDvv5o&t=5s"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F79UUxDvv5o[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2YKzpYm9hY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2YKzpYm9hY[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGUwgkjW908"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGUwgkjW908[/ame]
 
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Given a choice between the two, considerin' my pronounced interest in stayin' vertical, I go with door #3. Behind it is a 1911-A1 .45 ACP.

This is just me writin', so it's nothing more than my opinion: I'd rather have a Chief with 158 grain LSWC +P or LSWCHP +P than a .380. However, I can see how .380 aficionados would denounce me for heresy.
 
Given a choice between the two, considerin' my pronounced interest in stayin' vertical, I go with door #3. Behind it is a 1911-A1 .45 ACP.

This is just me writin', so it's nothing more than my opinion: I'd rather have a Chief with 158 grain LSWC +P or LSWCHP +P than a .380. However, I can see how .380 aficionados would denounce me for heresy.

1911-A1 is a great handgun. Classic, Iconic, BIG. Not easy to conceal for those of us that can not open carry. MORESO during the summer, in a T Shirt and shorts, say.
 
Hi cybermgk,

We'd have to adapt to prevailing conditions.

The 1911-A1 is very easy to conceal. But it's a heavy gun.

All guns would become more difficult to conceal while wearing shorts and a t-shirt.

I wear shorts and a t-shirt at least half-a-year. But I never carry a handgun. If I were to carry a handgun while in shorts & a t-shirt, I'd probably have to use a waist pack.

I spend a lot of time on So Cal's beautiful beaches. I wear very lightweight Nike or New Balance shorts because they dry very quickly. Women wear bikinis that are so tiny that they can't conceal parts that are supposed to be concealed, so a CCW woman in a bikini would have to use her beach bag. I ain't carrying a beach bag. So I don't carry. On the upside, in the 50+ years I've been hanging at So Cal beaches, I cannot recall a single incident where a person could've used a handgun. Local cops are excellent at keeping beaches safe. Beach traffic brings in a whole lot of taxable revenue, so cities insist that beaches remain safe.

I ain't sure if cops patrol beaches for bad guys or to see if women in tiny bikinis remain within public nudity law. Women must be law abiding because I've yet to see a cop cite one ;-)
 
Sometimes I carry my LCR loaded w/135gr Gold Dots.

Sometimes I carry my LCP loaded w/Fiocchi Extrema (7rd mag).

I shoot both guns well and have confidence in both.
 
ContinentalOp, I'm going to break down some of your statements, if you don't mind, because I tend to agree with much of what you posted, and though I'd add some comments.


The universal answer: It depends.

In nutshell, this is the simplest answer. ;)

I EDC a 642-1. I'm comfortable with it as my personal defense gun of choice at this time. I prefer .38 Special to .380ACP because I have more confidence in it to stop a violent attack. However, I have considered getting a small .380, like a LCP, for situations where I can carry a gun but my 642 wouldn't be discreet enough. To me, that's the advantage of the .380, the ability to have a gun when anything bigger isn't feasible.
You could've written that describing my preferences and thoughts ... except I usually carry one or the other of my M&P 340's, loaded with +P's, versus one of my pair of 642-1's, as they're a bit lighter and arguably have a better sight setup, for distances where I'm going to be aiming shots.

I don't consider reloading speed a high priority.

I tend to agree, and for similar reasons. Now that I no longer have to think about invoking peace officer status and taking an "enforcement action" in an off-duty situation, I have a little different opinion about the need for much "reloading" in a deadly force situation I might encounter now that I'm retired.

Besides, trying to get another magazine in the LCP requires removing much of the edge of my palm/hand to clear that diminutive grip and mag well. Loading my J's is a lot easier (lots of practice), and being a revolver offers an advantage, for an older revolver shooter, even in a smaller 5-shot configuration.

I only picked up a couple of LCP's because I couldn't pocket-holster one or another of my J's in some of my jeans. Not all makers seem to produce deep pockets in their jeans lines, and some of them are also too tight for the J's. The .380 involves some obvious compromises, but it's better than not being able to carry.

Push comes to shove, I do like having the option of using some of the heavier 125gr, 130gr & 135gr JHP's in my .38 snubs, compared to the 85-102gr JHP's in my LCP's. (Well, except for my pristine 347-2DAO, in which I'll only use standard pressure loads, and the better (hopeful expansion) of the standard pressure JHP's for snubs seem to come in 110gr weights. This puts it perilously close to making it a .380, since the Remington GS .380 JHP is 102grs. :p

An interesting aside, perhaps ....

I remember discussing .38 snubs as approved secondary/backup duty weapons with Dr Gary Roberts a few years ago. At that time he was working with a major agency on a program to possibly issue them. (I won't name the agency, as I don't know if it was eventually approved and completed, or if he remained involved with the program.) However, he said that range testing of some representative officers revealed that the use of +P loads produced accuracy and controllability that was less than what was considered desirable, but that when 148gr Target WC loads were used the results were noticeably much better. Apparently, the potential penetration of the low velocity WC's were considered acceptable, too. Accuracy and controllability, combined with an acceptable potential penetration, and the wide meplat of the soft swaged Target WC bullet's profile, was apparently being considered an acceptable compromise. Funny how things work, at times.

Anyway, like many retired cops I've developed some easily aggravated "hot spots" caused by many years of wearing too much gear that pressed against my lower back and hips, including leather gun belts and vests, and pocket-holster options are often the easiest way to avoid aggravating those hot spots. Some days/nights I can wear my belt holstered weapons without any problems developing, and other days/nights I can't. It depends. Annoying to have pressure on my glutes and iliac crests (from holster and spare mag/mags) cause discomfort, which can include pain down to a knee, at times.

Now, unlike some other folks, I don't stay awake at night worrying about the lighter bullets commonly found in .380ACP being able to meet the FBI performance specs for duty ammo. I'm not carrying one as a duty weapon, and despite what some folks might opine about agencies not authorizing .380, the venerable .380ACP is coming back in vogue. This is likely due, in no small part, to the proliferation of good quality smaller & lighter plastic pistols chambered in the caliber.

Hey, it's probably head and shoulders better than the .22's & .25's of yesteryear, when they were carried as secondary/backup weapons. Of course, I still remember the arguments made for carrying secondary weapons that were even larger in caliber than a primary duty weapon. The argument offered back then was that if your primary hadn't handled the "problem", you probably needed an "even more powerful/larger caliber" to handle it. In that vein, I remember some guys carrying large guns like a Commander or a M19 2 1/2" tucked away as secondary weapons on-duty.

Last I looked, LAPD authorizes .380ACP as secondary & off-duty weapons (along with .38 SPL), and mandates the use of Hornady CD.380 loads. LAPD is among the agencies I consider somewhat "savvy", FWIW. I can think of some medium-size agencies who have come to approve the .380ACP, too.

The issue of approved or issued ammo seems to lean in the direction of some modern JHP designs being used, rather than ball loads. That may not satisfy the folks who lean toward preferring deep penetration over expansion and more shallow penetration which may not meet the prevailing "minimum" for duty ammo, but when compromises are inevitably going to be involved, you've probably got to choose the ones with which you think you can live (or are willing to risk hoping you can live with them).

Dunno. Not anyone's expert. I can only make decisions for myself, but those decisions are often heavily influenced by my career's worth of training and experience (as both working cop and firearms instructor), and not everyone's conclusions and decisions based upon their experiential knowledge are likely to agree.

At the end of the day, it is what it is. :cool:
 
*sigh* Couple things.

One is, I used to hate on .380s until I shot a modern example. ******* thing hasn't jammed yet (and I literally tried), trigger's great, and it positively flings factory brass across the room...and into a nice neat little pile. So, there's really nothing wrong with a .380 pistol, aside from the fact that they're teensy and the sights kinda suck. But to be fair, the sights on a J-frame or any other teensy thing suck.

Two, my standard response to all "X caliber is too weak" is as follows:

Super! Then I guess you'll have no problem giving me that mousegun and standing over there, right? :D
 
I'll first state that I started off shooting BB guns as a kid in the late 70's before graduating to a Ruger single 6 22lr. Then in my early 20's I treated myself to a 6" 686. (Recently picked up a 4" 686, looking for that snubbie now) I've dibble dabbled with semi auto's, most notably was a Kahr K9. Kahr sold me the idea that their pistol's were double action only. Great pistol but I felt the trigger was too light. Way too light. In fact, I find most semi auto pistol trigger to be ridiculously light IMO. Maybe shooting revolvers all these years gave me gorilla hand strength, I don't know. All I know was I was shooting my 686 today double action at steel plate rack at 15 yards faster than the guy next to me with his Springfield xds 9mm.

I guess the point I wanted to make is, it's not the caliber or platform of firearm you choose to carry. It's your ability to put as many rounds as you can, as quickly as you can in the butter zone.

We can talk about knock down power, penetration, X is better than B and so forth till we all turn purple, it doesn't do ya any good if you can't hit the target. if for example you put more hits on target effectively with a Beretta Tomcat than a "more powerful" M&P shield 9mm, then by all means carry the Tomcat.
 
Even at 10 yards....

I was saying it "points" naturally for me. I can't shoot like Hickok45 but I do OK. I'm not going to hit the gong at 80 yds or at least not very often. I'm talking out to 10 yds, not 80. But in real life I suspect we're talking a few feet to across the room distance. Who gets the first hit on the other guy will probably be the "winner". I shoot the LCP a bit more accurately than the LCR. I'm one of the strange guys that actually likes shooting the LCP. But I think in terms of getting a fast, good purchase on the gun drawn from concealment when I look down the barrel-forget the sights-I'm more likely to get a first shot center mass hit at 7 yards with the snubbie. It is very easy for me to grip the LCP so it isn't aligned in my hand to be on target when raised to a firing position. A lot of training would help this and most of the time I can grip it and come up on target but it is much easier, more natural for me with the LCR. Having said this I frequently carry the LCP if I have to pocket carry due to how I had to dress. Bottom line isn't caliber wars but which platform will allow you to get the first hit center mass from draw while carrying concealed.

It's great to have a gun that 'points' naturally. My son has a Springfield that feels molded to your hand but form some reason I can't shoot it. :confused::(

Anyway, I'm DEFINITELY not criticizing someone that has natural talent for something. But it took me some work for me to get the bullets all on the silhouette.:D

Reminds me of the book 'Shane' when Joey would describe Shane's draw like 'pointing a finger'.
 
My .380's are what I termed 'kitchen guns'. They are what I pocket or ankle carry when working 8-12hrs in a restaurant. They deep conceal and are near impossible to spot. Glock 42, Bodyguard 380, and LCP II are my flavors. They all have 500+ rounds thru the tube now, 98% reliable. There's always the odd light-strike or failure to go to go into battery on some JHP "defensive" ammo. This is the nature of pocket guns in my experience, you train for malfunctions.

When I carry, I actually load Freedom 100gr FMJ ammunition. The 80-90gr "defensive" ammunition seems softer recoil but I don't trust its reliability across the board for all my .380's.
 
A double-stacked CZ .380 would be more effective than a 5-6 shot .38 of any size, but bullet-for-bullet, .38 wins IMHO.
 
I carry both 380's during the summer months and J-frames .38 spl+p sometime during the winter months.Has to do more with the months of the year more than anything else why I carry them.
 
It's late ,,,, I'm tired...... bottom line ..... no one wants to be shot with anything.........I carried a .380 for several years in the 80s .... then a 9mm 3913 for 20+ years.................... if I thought I was going in harm's way..... a long gun .............and a radio to call in air support.

bottom line ...... get the first hit ...................
 
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For self defense most calibers work most of the time. .380 and .38 have been around for over 100 years. If they didn't work they would be long gone. I carry a .38 because I like revolvers but I would feel just as secure with .380.

Bill
 
A double-stacked CZ .380 would be more effective than a 5-6 shot .38 of any size, but bullet-for-bullet, .38 wins IMHO.

I am really tying to figure this out, because it does not make sense to me. Why is having more shots more effective? If you connect with Mr, Badguy's cerebrial cortex with your first (or second or third) shot why does it matter if you have two or eight more, And if you miss, or connect with Mr. Badguy's wrist or elbow does it matter if you have two or eight more?
 
I mean, I like ya and all, but ya answered your own question there...

And if you miss, or connect with Mr. Badguy's wrist or elbow does it matter if you have two or eight more?

Yes. Yes it does. Very much so! :D

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On a serious note, I agree with both sides, so I am sure to piss off everybody.

On the one hand, 125-grain or 158-grain .38 Specials are clearly have a bit more oomph than the 90-grain .380 ACP. And even a 5-shot is still more than enough for the "average" encounter.

On the other, if your day has gotten bad to the point where you need to shoot a person, do you really want to gamble on having an "average" fight for your life? More is always better.

Also, as I theorized elsewhere, a larger .380 ACP pistol would be pretty easygoing to shoot, and easy to operate, even if you were unlucky enough to suffer from arthritis. Presuming you could--and this is just Bass Ackwards--keep the reliability of the smaller .380s.
 
I am really tying to figure this out, because it does not make sense to me. Why is having more shots more effective? If you connect with Mr, Badguy's cerebrial cortex with your first (or second or third) shot why does it matter if you have two or eight more, And if you miss, or connect with Mr. Badguy's wrist or elbow does it matter if you have two or eight more?
My opinion on this is changing. Starting to see more gas station robberies, etc. with 3 BG's, not just one or two. 5 shots doesn't leave much margin to convince three they have somewhere better to be.
 
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