.38spl 125gr XTP issues

[ninjatoth]

I can't wrap my head around this, the load data for the powders I use (231 & TiteGroup) list the c.o.a.l. at 1.455", but the case mouth isn't even touching the cannelure at all, obviously i'm not going to roll crimp into the smooth side of the bullet.

Other powders list the same bullet at 1.445" which puts the case mouth exactly mid cannelure where it should be, and definitely needs to be when fired through an airlite J- frame.

Load data everywhere I look for my preferred powder (TiteGroup) shows 4.3gr starting charge up to a +P max of 5.0gr and all at 1.455"? How can I do this if I can't even roll crimp them? Something is off here. I just loaded some up at the starting change of 4.3gr and seated to 1.445" with a moderate crimp, I am confident that the .010" deeper at the starting charge isn't going to cause an issue in my +P rated gun, but it all seems very strange that multiple references have one load data up to +P, actually almost +P+ levels with 5.0gr of TiteGroup with essentially no crimp whatsoever because you can't roll crimp at 1.455".

What's the deal here?

 

[Wise_A]

Just crimp to the groove.

Load data lists the minimum OAL they tested with, not necessarily the one you should use.

The other thing is that a lot of load data may or may not test with an actual Hornady XTP, but rather any FMJ hollowpoint of that type. In most cases, they will, but not always. The thing of it is that a hollowpoint bullet requires different load data than a bullet of identical weight and identical material (lead, plated, jacketed, etc), since the HP gives it different dimensions.

 

[BB57]

Use the groove, that's what it is for.

I suspect the 1.455" versus 1.445" is just a typo anyway, but even if it's not don't get hung up on .01" in a .38 Special load.

Lots of hand loaders get their underwear in a bunch over minor differences in overall length. Yes, it's true that a shorter OAL can increase pressures, particularly in small capacity, high pressure pistol rounds. But that's why you start low and work up in load development.

The much more important priority is ensuring that you're using an OAL that works in your pistol or revolver, and then adapting the powder charge if needed to accommodate a shorter OAL.

In your case, your priority is seating the bullet so the case mouth is in the middle of the groove and can be crimped to the minimum extent needed to keep the bullet in place under recoil - don't over do it as there is no benefit to having excessive crimp.

---

Hornady doesn't have data for TiteGroup for the 125 gr XTP, but it does show Win 231 with a max load of 5.7 gr and it lists an OAL of 1.450".

 

[shil]

What does Hornady's data say? It's their bullet. I would otherwise seat to mid-cannelure and crimp, beginning with the published start load from your source of data, or, if no start load shown, reducing charge by 10% and working up. Be safe.

 

[Alk8944]

Quit measuring OAL!!!!! I have said it before, and will now repeat it, and if you are offended I am sorry! Slavish adherence to COAL is the sign of a beginner. Get over it and start worrying about important reloading details! Seat to the center of the cannellure and call it good.

Case length can vary by as much as .040" in some cartridges, how can you chase .010" when the case might vary this much? What is important is seating depth, the distance the bullet extends into the cartridge case. This is how manuals used to list the information before WWII. This is what affects case capacity and, as a result, pressure, not OAL.

 

[forestswin]

What are your case length measurements?

 

[rwsmith]

The .38 special cartridge...

... is not nearly as critical as an semi auto pistol due to case volume (the .38 started out as a black powder cartridge) and are very forgiving of bullet depth. If you are near maximum load you can pay more attention to C.O.A.L, but I would guess that it would pass the test and you could continue to crimp at the cannelure.

Now 9mms, 10mms, .40 mm are already designed as high pressure loads and you want to be careful what you do with C.O.A.L.

 

[elpac3]

Quit measuring OAL!!!!! I have said it before, and will now repeat it, and if you are offended I am sorry! Slavish adherence to COAL is the sign of a beginner. Get over it and start worrying about important reloading details! Seat to the center of the cannellure and call it good.

Case length can vary by as much as .040" in some cartridges, how can you chase .010" when the case might vary this much? What is important is seating depth, the distance the bullet extends into the cartridge case. This is how manuals used to list the information before WWII. This is what affects case capacity and, as a result, pressure, not OAL.

well said.

I have been reloading .38 / .357 / .44 going on 40 years now and have never had issues with case length on these old cartridges. The cases I do measure are the rifle cases which head space on the shoulder.

I also can say that I have never trimmed a .38 / .357 / .44 case .

 

[BB57]

Slavish adherence to case trimming is another sign of a newbie.

Straight wall cases almost never grow, and the only exception is the large magnum cases fired repeatedly with high pressure, full power loads, and then usually the .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum rather than the .357 Magnum. The .45 Colt rarely needs trimmed when fired with heavy 32,000 psi loads as the straight case in a tapered chamber results in the case developing spider cracks in the side wall long before it needs trimmed.

I do have a case trimmer. It gets used maybe once a year on a small number of bottle necked rifle cases that have been fired a lot with mid range loads.

I also never clean primer pockets. 25 years of chronograph data in load developed has clearly demonstrated that it makes zero difference in velocity or consistency, and 39 years of reloading experience has shown that it makes zero difference in reliability.

I might uniform the flash hole and primer pocket on brass used for precision match loads, but that's a one time operation done on new brass.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

As you see from the posts above you should use the manufacturer's supplied crimp groove. That is the correct place to crimp that bullet. The OAL that is listed in the load data is there to report where they crimped the bullet when developing the data.

Even when crimping bullets for ammo used in a semi-auto you are not required to use the OAL they do, you use the OAL best for the smooth operation of your gun.

 

[ninjatoth]

Thanks for the replies. I will make sure to crimp it at mid cannelure and reduce charge. I think my starting charge at mid cannelure is a good start and I won't go up too far from that because the gun I intend to fire these through is a S&W 342PD that's only 10.8 ounces. I may get up to the vicinity of 4.5-4.6gr of TiteGroup at some point, or better yet find a better powder. I was not impressed with the W231 I tried though, seemed like any little motion of angle change while shooting caused pressure changes or something weird like that.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have not found W231 to be position sensitive. I use a lot if it and it's possible your load is too light. You will not have to reduce your charts weights when crimping to the correct spot on the bullet. The difference is very small.

 

[Neumann]

In lieu of a good roll crimp a 342PD becomes a kinetic bullet puller. The OAL is rarely critical, and often an extreme value for one reason or another. I've never had a pressure problem loading XTP's, but I start low and work up, usually stopping 0.5 to 1.0 grains below max (to account for drop variations). I also prefer a slower powder, like Unique, for jacketed and non-target loads.