3rd model russian question

[Aranyic]

I've got a few guns that were passed down to me from my Grandfather. Most of them are pretty straight forward shotguns and newer revolvers. There is one old revolver in the collection though that took me a little while to identify. I've come to the conclusion that it's one of the S&W model 3 -3rd revision Russians. From the wood grips, etc I assume a pretty straight forward, plain mass produced gun. I can identify the following markings on it.

On the bottom of the grip:
1874 in side a square on the far top
502xx serial number below that.
Along the far bottom is what is most likely a 'P' but nothing else shows up. It's pretty scuffed up right there.

I did open up the grips and the same serial number is engraved on the far (side opposite where the screw comes out) grip.

When i open up the gun I find a '166' along the top latch piece. The same '166' is on the right side of the top piece of the gun where the latch comes down. And it's also on the back of the cylinder.

That's all the marking that I can find at all. I'm interested enough in it to send in a information request to S&W but don't see their name imprinted anywhere on it. My question is do I have an actual S&W? Doing some reading it looks like it was reverse engineered and quite a few were made in both Russia and German? Is there a solid way to tell the difference?

 

[alaskavett]

Welcome to the forum. Interesting piece you have there. I'm no expert on these, but could you post a photo of the top of the bbl with the markings as best you can? I also wonder about the bbl as it looks like it is a different blue then the rest of the gun. Kyle

 

[Aranyic]

I see what you mean about the different coloring; I hadn't noticed that before.

There are no marking on the outside of the barrel it's self. I've attached a picture marking in red the 3 places where '166' show up. The markings on the far right side are the same piece of metal as the barrel though it's continuous. I can't get a good picture with the camera I have so that they can be read unfortunately.

//edit - forgot the attachment.

 

[alaskavett]

I'm thinking the barrel and its attachments are from a different gun then the frame. Possible a put together from parts at some time in the past. This could have happened as a result of a "armory" rebuild. There should be markings and patent dates on the rib on top of the barrel. When I was in the 4th grade a classmate took one these he had inherited and ground off all the Russian markings on the top as he did not want them on his gun!!. Kyle

 

[mmaher94087]

aranyic
Check under the grips for the '166' number. These older revolvers had a visible serial number on the butt only. The remaining numbers are 'fitters' numbers and were used to keep all the pieces together during production. Mike

 

[Ballarat]

Dont think S&W, its a copy of some description, the cylinder locking lug recess is just straight, S&W had a taper cut on the cylinder before the lock-up recess, allowing the bolt to rise gently against the cylinder before final lock-up. Its based on the Russian 3rd model. Absent barrel markings etc are certainly not S&W. Perhaps a Spanish copy. The German company Ludwig Lowe produced this and earlier models for the Russians, however they were much more faithful copies of the S&W produced revolvers. The different blue between frame and barrel assy is also a worry. If it was a Smith, all the main assemblies would carry the same serial number, frame/barrel/grips/cylinder. As well as their legend on the barrel rib. Serial numbers only were used on the Russian contract guns, no assy numbers, from about early 1872. Therefore any assembley numbers indicate a non S&W produced item. In this era assy numbers eventually became obsolete when the Schofield was manufactured in approx 1878, they were then as Russian contract guns parts serialised with the serial number, hope this helps.

Any rejected Russian contract guns would have had the Russian barrel markings ground-off and English markings re-stamped.

One interesting item mentioned is the letter P, this was a Russian acceptance mark, so make what you will of that. It was used long before the 3rd model contract though. So is somewhat confusing. It does not usually appear after the first Russian contract guns bearing the straight frame without the trigger pin reinforce.

Further info can be obtained by getting a copy of Pates book The S&W American model. Full of information.

 

[corporalgungee]

any interest in selling this copy ? i have a Uberti moderncopy and another European copy that I'll have in tomrrow morning .