4 digit HE 45lc
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If I read the SN correctly it seems to be in the sequence of the 2nd Model MKIIs in .455. Could the cylinder have been reamed to accept 45 Colt? In this SN range I don't think the caliber was stamped on the barrel. I think I see crossed pennants and perhaps the other usually seen British acceptance stamps on the frame. Other than that it looks like one I'd like to have I can't suggest more but others will be along who can. Oh, and welcome to the Forum, a very interesting first post.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Jeff
SWCA #1457
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yes, it has the crossed pennants and acc. stamp and no cal. on bbl .
Welcome to the Forum.
Where is the "RCMP 724" stamping? I agree that this is a 2nd Model .455. Can you post a picture of the cylinder, taken from the rear, so that we can see the chambers? All, we need a picture of the recoil plate, the area where the firing pin protrudes when fired.
Where is the "RCMP 724" stamping? I agree that this is a 2nd Model .455. Can you post a picture of the cylinder, taken from the rear, so that we can see the chambers? All, we need a picture of the recoil plate, the area where the firing pin protrudes when fired.
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The chambers have been deepened for the .45 Colt round. It appears the recoil plate has been shaved, as the .45 Colt has a slightly thicker rim than the .455 cartridge.
no ridges in the cyl ?
You can see the front of the chambers in your las picture. The chambers of an unaltered .455 would be much closer to the rear of the cylinder.
bores are smooth all the way
Nice looking gun
Chammbers are smooth yes, but, I can see the step from case size to throat size about 3/8" from the barrel end of cylinder. The cylinder retains the serial number and has no shallow recesses at the chamber, so if it was originally a 455 it would have needed about .02 taken off the face of the recoil shield because the colt has a thicker rim. (I think the recoil shield does look shaved) Of course the chambers are reamed deeper on a 45 colt than on a 455. If they were reamed deeper after production it would be difficult to see if the smith did good work.
Some S&W 45 colts were made for the Canadian RCMP. I would love to have one.
Chammbers are smooth yes, but, I can see the step from case size to throat size about 3/8" from the barrel end of cylinder. The cylinder retains the serial number and has no shallow recesses at the chamber, so if it was originally a 455 it would have needed about .02 taken off the face of the recoil shield because the colt has a thicker rim. (I think the recoil shield does look shaved) Of course the chambers are reamed deeper on a 45 colt than on a 455. If they were reamed deeper after production it would be difficult to see if the smith did good work.
Some S&W 45 colts were made for the Canadian RCMP. I would love to have one.
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there is no step in bores, in the pic it may look to be .
i "think" the ones (724) made for the RCMP were built as 45lc not modified 455s .
Sure there is, the transition from chamber to throat area is plainly visible. It's going to be a ramp, not a sharp shoulder, but the change in diameter is there.
If you have a sufficiently accurate measuring device such as calipers or pin gages, you will find that the back end of the chambers measure about .483 and the front end will measure about .459. At least that's what my rechambered .455 measures, although on mine the backside of the cylinder was faced off, as opposed to the recoil shield on yours being thinned.
The most certain way to be sure though is to get a Letter of Authenticity from Roy Jinks, S&W Historian. But I'll bet you a nickel that your gun was originally chambered in .455, not .45 Colt.
Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Home Page - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come
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Sure there is, the transition from chamber to throat area is plainly visible. It's going to be a ramp, not a sharp shoulder, but the change in diameter is there.
If you have a sufficiently accurate measuring device such as calipers or pin gages, you will find that the back end of the chambers measure about .483 and the front end will measure about .459. At least that's what my rechambered .455 measures, although on mine the backside of the cylinder was faced off, as opposed to the recoil shield on yours being thinned.
The most certain way to be sure though is to get a Letter of Authenticity from Roy Jinks, S&W Historian. But I'll bet you a nickel that your gun was originally chambered in .455, not .45 Colt.
Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Home Page - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come
yes the chambers do tapered down, but there is no step-ridge .
the recoil shield bluing matches the rest of the gun, it doesn't look like it was re blued ?
Clearly, the cylinder has proper throats for 45 Colt, but is unmodified for 45 Colt rim thickness.
I was just looking at a modified 2nd HE in which the cylinder chambers were slightly recessed to accommodate the thicker 45 Colt rim. The markings were thus retained. So far, so good, as far as 455 to 45 Colt rechamberings go.
Unfortunately whoever did the work reamed the chambers as straight through cylinder bore diameter. No throats at all!
You could insert a 45 Colt from either end of the cylinder.
Needless to say, I had to pass on that one!
I was just looking at a modified 2nd HE in which the cylinder chambers were slightly recessed to accommodate the thicker 45 Colt rim. The markings were thus retained. So far, so good, as far as 455 to 45 Colt rechamberings go.
Unfortunately whoever did the work reamed the chambers as straight through cylinder bore diameter. No throats at all!
You could insert a 45 Colt from either end of the cylinder.
Needless to say, I had to pass on that one!
You may not see the modification but the rest of us do. You can resolve the issue easily, and should if you intend to represent this as a "factory 45 Colt," by requesting a S&W letter. That will tell you for sure how it left the factory.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Jeff
SWCA #1457
breech has not been faced, the wheel has not been faced, no cal. stamp on the bbl and theres no recess ? what mods are you seeing ?
tenntex32
Member
Unless I am mistaken the S&W revolvers built for .45Colt have a longer cylinder than those built for the shorter .455Webley. If that is truly the case then I would not expect to see as much of a gap between the front cylinder face and frame nor would I expect to see so much of the barrel breech showing through the frame if this revolver truly started out life as a .45Colt.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong but this does look to be an anomaly with the OP's example if he is thinking it was originally chambered in .45Colt.
It was not uncommon to convert .455Webley caliber examples to .45Colt or .45acp before being sold onto the U.S. market..........much like the many .38S&W caliber U.K. Victory revolvers that were converted to .38special before being sold onto the U.S. market.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong but this does look to be an anomaly with the OP's example if he is thinking it was originally chambered in .45Colt.
It was not uncommon to convert .455Webley caliber examples to .45Colt or .45acp before being sold onto the U.S. market..........much like the many .38S&W caliber U.K. Victory revolvers that were converted to .38special before being sold onto the U.S. market.
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Actually, a S&W made cylinder, chambered in .45 Colt, would be slightly shorter than a .455 cylinder. This due to the fact that a .455 cartridge has a thinner rim.
smokymd
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I agree the breach has not been faced - or if it has it has been returned to near orig. dimensions not easy to achieve, you can not remove .020 from the breech face and have the staking grooves that pronounced around the hammer nose bushing or have the freeing rebate also visible in the photo.
Interesting view points but - - - - - - ?
John Claydon. SWCA # 348
tenntex32
Member
That's odd as factory chambered S&W N-Frame .45Colt examples I have seen have a cylinder that fills out the frame's cylinder cutout way more than the OP's example.
Has S&W went back and forth with either the cylinder length or the frame's cylinder cutout size over the years?
Admittedly I am a .45acp revolver guy and not a .45Colt guy but I know I have seen numerous S&W .45Colt chambered examples that do not have anywhere near the gap my .45acp examples have between the front cylinder face and frame. (Nor did they have as much breech/forcing cone visible just forward of the cylinder.)
Here are a few examples of what I am talking about........maybe this did not happen with earlier S&W factory chambered .45lc examples?
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Short cylinders/long barrel shank means that the bullet has a shorter path from the cylinder into the barrel.
If you can find a picture of a M25-3, which is the 125th Anniversary Model chambered in .45 Colt, the cylinder is short. When the M25-5, chambered in .45 Colt, was introduced, S&W used a longer cylinder.
"...maybe this did not happen with earlier S&W factory chambered .45lc examples?"
There were very few S&W revolvers built in .45 Colt. Most were special order until the M25-5 was introduced in 1978.
If you can find a picture of a M25-3, which is the 125th Anniversary Model chambered in .45 Colt, the cylinder is short. When the M25-5, chambered in .45 Colt, was introduced, S&W used a longer cylinder.
"...maybe this did not happen with earlier S&W factory chambered .45lc examples?"
There were very few S&W revolvers built in .45 Colt. Most were special order until the M25-5 was introduced in 1978.
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tenntex32
Member
Muley,
I was looking for a pic of one of the few actual RCMP factory chambered .45Colt 2nd Model examples but I was unlucky in finding anything. (All I could turn up were pics of .455 examples with .45Colt conversions.)
Do you happen to have a pic of one?
I guess I'll have to get used to the fact that S&W .45Colt revolvers could have long or short cylinders. Maybe I should just stick to my .45acp examples............but I knew I had seen S&W .45Colt cylinders taking up most all of the frame's cylinder cutout.
Maybe I should just stick to the .45acp examples.
Thanks for the clarification.
I was looking for a pic of one of the few actual RCMP factory chambered .45Colt 2nd Model examples but I was unlucky in finding anything. (All I could turn up were pics of .455 examples with .45Colt conversions.)
Do you happen to have a pic of one?
I guess I'll have to get used to the fact that S&W .45Colt revolvers could have long or short cylinders. Maybe I should just stick to my .45acp examples............but I knew I had seen S&W .45Colt cylinders taking up most all of the frame's cylinder cutout.
Maybe I should just stick to the .45acp examples.
Thanks for the clarification.
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'Fraid not.
tenntex32
Member
Yeah even pictures of them seem rare as hen's teeth. Maybe one of our friends way up north can help us out with one?
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I thought all of the RCMP .45 Colt S&Ws were altered .455s..........
tenntex32
Member
I have read where 700 or so S&W 2nd Model Hand Ejectors, factory chambered in .45Colt, were shipped to Canada for RCMP use.
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Welcome! This is a nicely preserved example of a WW I era N frame.
However, as stated above the only way to verify its originality is with a letter of authenticity from the SWHF:
http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.com/swhf_letter.pdf
There is conflicting information in the photos (some suggesting originality, some suggesting aftermarket modification) that only the letter will clarify. As you are apparently looking to sell (buy?) it, there would be a 300-500% difference in its value between a nice but altered .455 Mk II and an original .45 Colt. Lacking such documentation everything is pure speculation, on anyone's part.
Good luck in your decision and I hope it letters.
However, as stated above the only way to verify its originality is with a letter of authenticity from the SWHF:
http://www.swhistoricalfoundation.com/swhf_letter.pdf
There is conflicting information in the photos (some suggesting originality, some suggesting aftermarket modification) that only the letter will clarify. As you are apparently looking to sell (buy?) it, there would be a 300-500% difference in its value between a nice but altered .455 Mk II and an original .45 Colt. Lacking such documentation everything is pure speculation, on anyone's part.
Good luck in your decision and I hope it letters.
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