40 S&W for bear

Many years ago on the Paul Harvey radio show at noon, there was a story of a hunter that shot a deer and was dressing it out after leaning his rifle against a near by tree, on Kodiak Island.
He was interrupted by a bear that came across them and made a charge. All he had was the knife and he actually survived the battle and this was looked into by the F&G and they agreed that, in fact, the bear was killed by a knife and no other weapon.
Now the rest of the story...............................

The hunter was 65 years old.


Gun ??
I don't need no stinking GUN !!
 
Many years ago, as a very young man just returned from my first all expenses paid vacation to sunny Southeast Asia, I decided to try bear hunting on lovely Fort Benning, Georgia. Having studied the subject a bit I proceeded to gather up some bait from local butcher shops, fruit and vegetable stands, etc, ending up with a couple of good sized sacks of rather smelly stuff that would properly be called garbage.

My hunting gun selection was a bit limited, but I had a Mossberg 20-gauge shotgun with adjustable choke that did fairly well with rifled slugs out to about 50 yards (which is usually a pretty long shot in those southern pine forests and swamps). I had taken a number of Georgia whitetail deer with that combination with no problems.

Having set out my bait I settled into ambush mode early one frosty morning. Sure enough, within a couple of hours a black bear obliged me with a visit to bait #1. I remember waiting patiently for several minutes until the old bear moved into what I thought to be the ideal position, offering me a clear heart-lung shot from about 20 yards range. I took the shot and the bear reacted immediately, rearing up and screaming, then rolling over several times and biting at his rib cage area. I chambered a second round and put another shot into the bear's chest, which resulted in little change in behavior. A third shot finally seemed to put the bear down, but he continued thrashing around on the ground. I decided to wait him out, hoping that he would bleed out quickly.

After about 10 minutes the thrashing stopped and the bear was lying still. With a fresh round chambered and the magazine topped off I approached from his rear and watched for a minute or two. The bear was still breathing and shuddered with each exhalation. I worked around to the side, about 3 yards from the head and carefully put one right behind the ear. The bear rolled over, thrashed up onto his feet, and ran about 20 feet right into a big old pine tree, collapsing in a heap. After about 10 minutes I walked over and prodded the still carcass with the barrel of my loaded shotgun. No response.

At that point I was rather delighted with myself. My little family would have at least 150 lbs. of meat in the freezer for the winter, and I would have a bear skin with full bragging rights!

I pulled out my knives and saw, then went to work. Let me first say to those who have never been around a bear in the wild, they stink to high heaven; a skunk has nothing to compete with the stench of an old bear that has been living on garbage, road kill, and gut piles during hunting season. I had just about decided against keeping the hide, just because of the terrible smell, when it was time to start recovering that meat for the freezer.

Bear meat is dark and musty smelling, and as greasy as a side of bacon ever thought of being. I cut, sawed, and hacked that carcass until everything that might be useful for consumption had been collected. Several trips to the car were required to carry out my winter's meat supply.

Spent much of that day butchering the big chunks into what I thought to be roasts, steaks, and other edible portions for the freezer. After the experience of dressing out and cutting up that nasty old critter I decided it would be best to wait a couple of weeks before having the first meal.

We decided to start out with a nice roast, done up in the pressure cooker with onions and spices, some mashed potatoes and pan gravy on the side. We could not finish that first meal. Bear meat has the most god-awful aftertaste, and that greasy quality makes it just linger in your gut and on your palate for hours.

I offered bear meat to everyone I knew, and lots of folks took home packages. When asked if they wanted any more they all politely declined.

I know that this thread is about self-defense against bears, specifically debating the use of the .40 S&W for that purpose. If anything, the bear in my story probably needed some means of self-defense against me. All I will add is that I will never willingly take another bear. I will do my best to leave them alone and hope they will return the courtesy.

If I ever have to defend myself against a bear I will do my best with what I have on hand, whether it is a .44 magnum or my Gerber pocket knife. While doing so I will remember a modest size black bear that took 4 rounds of rifled slugs from 20 yards or less and still had powerful life remaining in him.
 
Sounds like it has worked before. IMHO, maybe it'd work for small black bears on the coast, but I'd personally want something more substantial.
 
.357 magnum vs 40 " short & weak"


5" M&P PRO
155gr. 9.0gr power pistol 1409 fps.
muzzle energy = 683

6" S&W 586
158gr xtp 17gr w-296 1207 fps.
Muzzle energy = 511

Niether is enough for bear, and maginal for midwestern whitetail deer....but hardy " short & weak if you hand load.

never understood why the 10mm and 357 are Thor's Hammer and the 40 is "short & weak" LOL
 
never understood why the 10mm and 357 are Thor's Hammer and the 40 is "short & weak" LOL

The .40 had it's origin in FBI testing and is a downloaded 10 mm with a 9mm frame. The FBI was happy with the 'FBI load' and didn't need a bigger, more powerful gun but did want a semi auto. They didn't like the size and kick of the 10mm. S&W found out they could shorten the cartridge and still get the FBI requirements, so they designed the.40 around that cartridge. It's shorter and downloaded hence the name 'Short & Weak'.
 
The .40 had it's origin in FBI testing and is a downloaded 10 mm with a 9mm frame. The FBI was happy with the 'FBI load' and didn't need a bigger, more powerful gun but did want a semi auto. They didn't like the size and kick of the 10mm. S&W found out they could shorten the cartridge and still get the FBI requirements, so they designed the.40 around that cartridge. It's shorter and downloaded hence the name 'Short & Weak'.

yep...I remember that.

meanwhile it seems load data books have watered down both 10mm and 357 load data over the years.
 
Many years ago on the Paul Harvey radio show at noon, there was a story of a hunter that shot a deer and was dressing it out after leaning his rifle against a near by tree, on Kodiak Island.
He was interrupted by a bear that came across them and made a charge. All he had was the knife and he actually survived the battle and this was looked into by the F&G and they agreed that, in fact, the bear was killed by a knife and no other weapon.
Now the rest of the story...............................

The hunter was 65 years old.


Gun ??
I don't need no stinking GUN !!


The knife was a Buck Model 110 folder and was for a time displayed on Chuck Buck's office wall. The man stabbed the bear in the neck. Must have hit a vital nerve or artery. The Model 110 has a blade about four inches long.

I think the same man was on one of the Discovery TV gun shop shows, the one set in Alaska, where the shop employees remind some of us of pawn shop people in New Jersey. Can't recall the name of the show. But he asked someone to do a proxy hunt for him, as he and his wife needed game meat to survive the winter and he is too old now to hunt. They mentioned the knife and bear incident.

Also, a Canadian man killed an attacking cougar on Vancouver Island with a similar knife from Schrade. I interviewed him for a magazine article, and he was later on a Discovery TV special profiling several men who had survived cougar attacks. This chap, named Anderson, was badly ripped up and his scalp was pulled almost off. I think he lost an eye. He told me that the hardest part was keeping the cat's teeth out of his throat while he got the knife out and opened it with both hands. He was 67 then, almost like the man who stabbed the bear. Some guys stay fit at that age.

My son knifed a big coydog that jumped him in his back yard in a suburb of a college town. He used a Benchmade one-hand opening knife with a tanto style blade. He says that being able to open the knife with one hand was a major element in his survival. He ripped the dog along the chest and stomach area and it disengaged and left at high speed. It was never found, but the wound was probably not survivable. He was wearing an expensive leather jacket that was pretty well ruined by blood, but most of the blood wasn't his. The coat did prevent him being injured worse.

His wife was pretty shocked to see him, but the blood washed off, and most was the dog's. He thinks he surprised this mutt at dusk, when it was stalking a sick horse in the yard. It came at him out of the darkness and it was quite a shock. Thankfully, he was wearing the knife in a belt pouch. He now wears a gun when he goes out at night.
 
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Aw man...

Having set out my bait I settled into ambush mode early one frosty morning. Sure enough, within a couple of hours a black bear obliged me with a visit to bait #1. I remember waiting patiently for several minutes until the old bear moved into what I thought to be the ideal position, offering me a clear heart-lung shot from about 20 yards range. I took the shot and the bear reacted immediately, rearing up and screaming, then rolling over several times and biting at his rib cage area. I chambered a second round and put another shot into the bear's chest, which resulted in little change in behavior. A third shot finally seemed to put the bear down, but he continued thrashing around on the ground. I decided to wait him out, hoping that he would bleed out quickly.

After about 10 minutes the thrashing stopped and the bear was lying still. With a fresh round chambered and the magazine topped off I approached from his rear and watched for a minute or two. The bear was still breathing and shuddered with each exhalation. I worked around to the side, about 3 yards from the head and carefully put one right behind the ear. The bear rolled over, thrashed up onto his feet, and ran about 20 feet right into a big old pine tree, collapsing in a heap. After about 10 minutes I walked over and prodded the still carcass with the barrel of my loaded shotgun. No response.

Aw man, poor bear.:(
 
The American black bear is now Ursus americanus, according to most taxonomists. Apparently a few holdouts still use Euarctos.




It's possible Corbett was limited to five rounds by state or local laws intended to prevent insurgents or bandits from becoming armed. As I recall, William Fairbairn when with the Shanghai Police had witness holes drilled into the Colt 1908 pistol magazines used by the native police officers. The holes provided a quick visual check that the men were bringing back all of their ammo after a patrol, and not selling a few rounds here and there on the black market.


Corbett said the five-round limit had to do with a superstition that he had. He mentioned some other hunters' superstitions, none of which made much sense except to the men who held them. He also had a theory that killing a snake would bring him hunting luck.
 
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I just want to know; why do so many people think bears are invincible? Even black bears, are rumored or said to be these giant tank like beasts that can not be brought down by man or god! They die just as easily as anything else with a well placed shot, if you double lung an animal.......... its going down. If an arrow from my Fred Bear "bear hunter" that probably hits about 240fps can drop a bear, then a hot loaded 40 cal is going to drop a bear.
 
I just want to know; why do so many people think bears are invincible? Even black bears, are rumored or said to be these giant tank like beasts that can not be brought down by man or god! They die just as easily as anything else with a well placed shot, if you double lung an animal.......... its going down. If an arrow from my Fred Bear "bear hunter" that probably hits about 240fps can drop a bear, then a hot loaded 40 cal is going to drop a bear.

The point being *with a well placed shot*.
Whilst bow hunting (or hunting with a pistol) one is advised to wait until *the shot* presents itself - Otherwise pass and wait...

A bear in charge mode will not present a thru the lungs shot - And is WAY more scary than dealing with the bear from a stand.

Besides - Not only are these things BIG - they're F A S T and many charges are because of surprising the animal - and it isn't the only participant that's surprised.

When wandering about in bear country (or where big cats hunt) I believe that a fairly hot 44 mag is MINIMUM for handguns. 12 gauge is better, and there are a lot of decent rifles for use on charging bears --- IF you get the chance to use one.
 
I think the operative phrase is......

I just want to know; why do so many people think bears are invincible? Even black bears, are rumored or said to be these giant tank like beasts that can not be brought down by man or god! They die just as easily as anything else with a well placed shot, if you double lung an animal.......... its going down. If an arrow from my Fred Bear "bear hunter" that probably hits about 240fps can drop a bear, then a hot loaded 40 cal is going to drop a bear.

...well placed shot. That's ok for hunting, but you can't wait for a charging bear in the woods to present a good profile and even the coolest head is likely to fire a few not-so-well placed shots. There is an earlier poster who give an account of several 'well placed shots' not stopping the bear, and he was hunting for them so expected to see them.

And bears aren't invincible, but the chances of winning a fight are highly in the bears favor.

I never heard a rumor that a black bear was like a tank, but they are a good deal smaller than a grizzly or a brown.
 
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Even though I've lived around bears for the last 15 years or so (Montana, Idaho, New Mexico) I've never had the occasion to be charged by one so I haven't had to shoot one in the act.

But, just thinking it through - wouldn't you actually have to HIT the bear to stop him?

I wonder how many folks could actually hit a moving bear head with a heavily loaded .44 or .45, especially a single action.

I know a .40 S&W will go through a windshield, a guy's head, a headrest, the back seat, and into the trunk of a car. I suspect it would at least get into a bear skull and bounce around.

I think a fast-shooting .40 cal semi-auto would do the trick.
 
At 5-15 feet, no handgun is adequate for griz. A slow retreat would be your best hope, while watching the bear. You won't get 3 shots at that distance, and probably not 2. At 5-15 feet, I wouldn't consider a .35 Whelen enough gun. If you do shoot a griz at 5 feet, try your best kung fu moves when he sinks his teeth in your face.
 
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how on earth did I not see "another B E A R..... omg thread" ??

My take.....I don't hunt where the griz, cape buffalo or other big critters roam. I do and have hunted where blackies, mountain lion, big wolves, and deadbeat thugabillys of the two legged kind roam. I carry a glock 23 at work, and I carry that same glock 23 in the bush because it only weighs 32 ounces loaded with Double Tap 200 gr hard cast gas check boollits that travel a mere 1050 fps from said glock. Is it as powerful as a 44mag nope, but I don't need a 44 mag to protect myself from anything that roams where I hunt. I carried a colt delta in 10mm for awhile but loaded it was something near 48 oz. I am currently collecting parts for a lightweight commander build (26 oz empty) in 10mm. It will work just fine for me.
 
Folks that depend on a .40 S&W to defend themselves against bear attacks are referred to in one of three ways... The Late, Before He Was Mauled, or The Lucky.
 
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