40 S&W Shield Carry ammo?

[CB3]

Then why does Speer produce ONLY the .40S&W Short Barrel hollow point self defense ammo in 180 grain? They do not offer the short barrel ammo for 40S&W in 155 grain or 165 grain.

Do you think they know what they're doing?

They have a long and respected track record in ammunition manufacturing and ballistics studies.

I think the logic of what Roger is saying is sound. We believe a respected ammunition company would not market something that they know doesn't work. The Gold Dot bullet is a proven performer in most loadings.

Dave Spaulding on The Speer Gold Dot | Handgun Combatives

Unfortunately, determining whether or not something works can be very subjective, and it is often driven by profit motives.

180 grain is historically the most popular bullet weight for the .40 S&W because of its roots in the 10mm cartridge. Just like .45 ACP only has one viable bullet weight in most people's minds: 230 grains.

Sometimes rather than fight (or educate) consumer popularity, it is just easier to take advantage of it. People want to buy 180 grn .40 S&W, and they want to shoot it out of the smaller self defense guns so prevalent on the market today. If you were in charge of marketing and making profits for Speer, you either re-label what you've got, or maybe tweak it a bit.

I have not seen FBI protocol testing for this load, so I admit I cannot evaluate it. There is really no other more scientifically accepted apples-to-apples testing for self defense ammo that allows us to compare loads.

The problem is, the FBI tests measure only velocity and an array of terminal performances. Other characteristics come to play for a full self defense evaluation, not the least of which include recoil, muzzle blast and muzzle flash, which can be expected to be greater with any load in shorter barrels. Such characteristics can negatively affect a shooter's ability to put rounds on target accurately and quickly.

Physics don't lie. Given the same basic velocity and subsequent terminal performance, a heavier bullet requires more energy to get it up to speed. That increased energy translates into increased recoil and probably muzzle blast.

According to Speer, the standard Gold Dot .40 180 grn loading out of a 4" barrel develops 1025 fps., an average for most .40 loads. The short barrel (length not specified) loading achieves 950 fps. Is it a different, velocity tuned bullet? Maybe. But if the same diameter bullet achieves the same expansion, penetration depth must be different with a slower velocity. To get the same penetration, the bullet would have to expand less.

Speer Ammo - Ballistics Tables (Check details)

Speer does not give a comparison of terminal performance, expansion & penetration between these two loadings that I can find.

It is not a mistake to use a short barreled Gold Dot loading; it is a choice. Just make sure all the relevant factors are part of that choice to get optimal performance for your needs.

 

[uko7]

Hornady 175 gr critical duty, always feeds and accurate.

 

[tat2dchad]

100% personal opinion
chocolate vs vanilla
40vs 9 etc etc

 

[PR24]

Over penitration and the whole evolution of the personal defense hollow point made huge advancements with bonded and controlled expansion in just the last 10 years let alone the last 100 years. No law enforcements in the country allows the use of fmj and the military doesn't use the FMJ because its a superior design. No one would ever use a FMJ in a 40 S&W for defense considering the caliber round itself was designed for the hollow point. The 45acp is the only FMJ that is close to being safe to not over penetrate. You can drive with your feet but that doesn't make it a good idea. There is not one tactical school that would consider a FMJ in a 9mm or 40s&w a acceptable personal defense bullet.

Check out the 165 Hornady Critical Defese. It has 500+ ftlbs of energy. It feeds reliable in about everything I have seen and also tests very well.
Hornady Critical Defense .40 S&W 165 gr FTX: SIM-TEST* w/denim - YouTube

**Very true! Even NYPD went to GDHP's a few years back because FMJ 9mm wasn't cutting it. See Amadou Diallo shooting; 020499. Detroit isn't "allowed" to use HP's since they're 'mean' bullets...so they use Federal's EFMJ. Better than FMJ's.

My agency is exclusively Speer GDHP's (all calibers). Trust me, they work exactly as advertised. Just ask the Maricopa OME.

The lighter grain GDHP's 155/165 will give you more velocity out of a short bbl like the Sheild. Regardless, stick with factory loaded proven HP's from the big companies: Speer, Remington, Federal, Winchester, Hornady etc. Avoid the "boutique" off the wall specialty BS! They are unproven in the real world, way overpriced & based on youtube science. Mas Ayoob is right; that stuff can cause legal headaches..... Trust me, I deal with lawyers ALL the time.

 

[Brandon1987]

I found that 165 gr Hornady Critical Defense would not feed properly. It would get stuck at an upward angle and wouldn't sit in the barrel. So i picked up some 180 gr Winchester FMJ (white box) ammo and it feeds perfectly. However I'm looking for a great JHP round for carry purposes. Any advice on what works guys?

 

[CB3]

I found that 165 gr Hornady Critical Defense would not feed properly. It would get stuck at an upward angle and wouldn't sit in the barrel. So i picked up some 180 gr Winchester FMJ (white box) ammo and it feeds perfectly. However I'm looking for a great JHP round for carry purposes. Any advice on what works guys?

Have you not even read the thread? The advice you seek is related above in numerous different posts.

 

[Ron AZ]

X … whatever # for Federal 165 gr. HST's. Also have some Hornady Critical Defense 165 gr to use up from when I had a shorter barrel .40, and Hornady Critical Duty 175 gr. that I am more likely to carry outside the house than inside.

 

[Brandon1987]

I was trying to see what other kinds of ammo people would prefer.

 

[jeffreybehr]

I've found that the Federal HST is best.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/415428-40s-w-premium-pd-bullets-we-have-winner.html

 

[mtncharlie1968]

Yes, I sure do. Been to Gunsite 2 times as well as attended other professional training over the years. I also was a sponsored IPSC Shooters for many years.

I can't believe with all the information we have these days that this topic would ever need to be discussed??? .....but here we are.

NO tactical training schools recommend to police or civilian the use of FMJ over a modern hollow point in the 9mm or 40s&w.

Tell me the names of the two schools you know about that recomend FMJ with the 9mm and 40S&W for personal defense ammo??????????
. I'll save you the time, there isn't any.


If you think the military is purposely choosing to use FMJ for any other reason than "The Hague Convention", your sadly misinformed. There is no way the military uses the FMJ (especially in a 9mm) for any tactical superiority over a modern hollow point. That's not my opinion or even debatable. Any research will show this and has been discussed at length. Ironic, isn't it, that exposed lead and hollow point bullets are banned from combat because they are more likely to cause horrible wounds and death?? Isn't that what you want as a civilian???? The best and most lethal bullet to end a confrontation???
Since there isnt any artificial political restrictions hindering police, SWAT or any tactcal team, they never choose to use a fmj and always use the best hollow points because they want to end the threat as quickly as possible.

Not only doesnt any law enforcement use the FMJ but all wildlife fish and game outlaw the use of FMJ to hunt with because of the danger and ineffectiveness compared to any hollow point design.


Last but not least, ....lets not discount the ammo manufactures design and intended purpose directly from the manufacture itself.
On all FMJ boxes or ammo manufactures web site, it list the FMJ for "range use" or "practice only" printed on the box or at the web site. Some even go the extra distance to warn you that this not designed for "personal protection".

(Disclaimer:
Sure, if you are in a life and death situation and all you have is FMJ, then you are going to use them but only in that rare and unique situation because that's your ONLY choice.)

You can drive with your feet but that doesn't mean its a good idea. (and yet some knuckle heads do this too. Perhaps to go against conventional knowledge and common sense).

Here is one of many many videos why NOT to use FMJ.
Hollow Point vs. FMJ---GY6 Ballistics Test #1 - YouTube

To recomend using FMJ over a modern hollow point for self defense is irresponsible when you have the option for a much better bullet.

It came to light in Iraq that Blackwater operatives were using expanding ammunition, they weren't military so the Hague Convention didn't apply to them.
Our soldiers had complained about the lack of stopping power with their M4's, sometimes taking multiple hits to stop their adversary. The Blackwater people had no problem with one hit stops with the same 5.56 rounds using regular expanding hunting rounds. The same applied to the use of expanding rounds in their 9mm sidearm, one shot stops compared to multiple rounds required for hopped up terrorists.

 

[JMichaelTX]

After considerable research, I have selected Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3),
or their HST LE equivalent, P40HST3.

This is my preference for self defense ammo, because:

• It is on the recommended ammo list made by DocGKR, and several other generally accepted authoritative lists.
• It meets/exceeds FBI ammo standards
• It has a high velocity (1130) & energy (468) as compared with other loads
• I can get it for a reasonable price from SGAmmo.com

You may find this survey from Defensive Ammo Choice helpful:

References:
1. TACTICAL® HST® 40 S&W at le.vistaoutdoor.com, official Federal LE site.
2. Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo at AR15.com
3. Defensive Ammo Choice at DefensiveCarry.com