40 S&W Shield Carry ammo?

[Rastoff]

To recomend using FMJ over a modern hollow point for self defense is irresponsible when you have the option for a much better bullet.

This is where this whole conversation is breaking down. I never said I'd recommend hardball ammo over hollow points. You seem to have this locked in your head, but that's not what I said.

What you said was, "DONT use FMJ for personal defense." What I said was that hardball was better than nothing. See the difference?

 

[HeavyDuty Ken]

There is research that suggests 180 gr will not expand when used in short barrel 40,s. I would stay with 155, or 165 gr hollowpoints. My preference is Hornady XTP.

This is the reason I'm trying the Gold Dot Short Barrel 180 g load - it appears to be optimized for the little guns.

 

[S&WForty]

Where are you guys getting this "Short Barrel" ammo? Unless I am overlooking it, I don't see it at SGAmmo. I've bought from them twice, and they were good to deal with each time. What other sellers can anyone recommend?

 

[90crvtec]

Where are you guys getting this "Short Barrel" ammo? Unless I am overlooking it, I don't see it at SGAmmo. I've bought from them twice, and they were good to deal with each time. What other sellers can anyone recommend?

The Speer Short Barrel loads are harder to come by. In the past I have ordered them from Grafs. Except for the .38 +P 135grn, I have not been able to find them in a 50 round box, only the 20 round "consumer" boxes.

Usually I have better luck sourcing them at my local gun shop. Most of the time they are priced identically to the other Gold Dot loadings in the shops that are local to me.

 

[HeavyDuty Ken]

Where are you guys getting this "Short Barrel" ammo? Unless I am overlooking it, I don't see it at SGAmmo. I've bought from them twice, and they were good to deal with each time. What other sellers can anyone recommend?

CTD and Bud's both have them - I couldn't find them locally.

 

[CB3]

Internal ballistics

A bullet in a case in a chamber initially has zero velocity. As powder burns and builds gas pressure in the cartridge, the bullet starts to move down the barrel, accelerating rapidly. The farther a bullet can travel in the restricted space of a barrel with continually expanding gas behind it, the faster it will go. Yes, powder selection has an important bearing on this, but let's just stick with the basics.

A short barrel gives a bullet less time to accelerate than a longer barrel. Short barrels produce less velocity than longer barrels, especially in handguns.

Heavier bullets either accelerate more slowly than lighter bullets, or if because of powder selection they do accelerate as fast as a lighter bullet, especially in a short distance, then there must be greater force applied to that movement. This translates to greater recoil.

While a slower moving heavier bullet may have as much energy as a faster moving lighter bullet, the resultant increased recoil, especially in a small, lightweight handgun, translates into reduced control with the gun, adversely affecting speed and accuracy of subsequent shots.

Often you can gain a slight tactical shooting advantage by using lighter bullets out of short barreled guns. Since the one shot stop from a small handgun is largely a myth, multiple fast well aimed shots have a much higher percentage of terminating the attack of a motivated individual.

IOW, more well aimed bullets delivered faster is an advantage.

I use the all copper Barnes TAC-XP bullets from various manufacturers (Including now Barnes ammo) as lighter weight bullets that perform like heavier weight bullets because of their monolithic design. They actually outperform other common, less expensive designs in all critical tests, but because copper costs 4x the cost of lead, LE does not use them based on cost.

Functional reliability, consistent upper end velocity with lighter bullets (copper is not as dense as lead), deep penetration with 150% expansion and 99-100% weight retention combines all the self defense attributes you could want, including barrier penetration. You don't have to feel like a grenade is exploding in your hand to launch this quality projectile.

Yes, I worked for Barnes but retired three years ago.

This 140 grn Barnes Military/Law Enforcement (M/LE) TAC-XP copper bullet is about as long as a lead 165 grn. The 10mm 155 grn bullet is almost too long to load successfully in a .40 S&W case, but some do it. The extra weight is not necessary for top performance.



M/LE TAC XP Pistol Bullets | Barnes Bullets

 

[southswede]

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

 

[Roger S&W]

There is research that suggests 180 gr will not expand when used in short barrel 40,s. I would stay with 155, or 165 gr hollowpoints. My preference is Hornady XTP.

Then why does Speer produce ONLY the .40S&W Short Barrel hollow point self defense ammo in 180 grain? They do not offer the short barrel ammo for 40S&W in 155 grain or 165 grain.
Do you think they know what they're doing?

And in 9mm, Speer only makes Gold Dot ammo for the Short Barrel variety in 124grain+P.
They do not offer it in 115grain or 147 grain.

I would think they know which bullet weights and velocities are optimal for self defense (ballistics) when fired out of short barrels. (Less than 4'')

They have a long and respected track record in ammunition manufacturing and ballistics studies.

 

[zipmac22]

Speer Gold Dot 155 grain

 

[HeavyDuty Ken]

This is the reason I'm trying the Gold Dot Short Barrel 180 g load - it appears to be optimized for the little guns.

I put two boxes of the Gold Dot Short Barrel load through my Shield Friday with no problems so I'm starting to carry these. I'll continue putting a box through it every few months to be absolutely sure it is compatable, but I'm optimistic.

 

[CB3]

Then why does Speer produce ONLY the .40S&W Short Barrel hollow point self defense ammo in 180 grain? They do not offer the short barrel ammo for 40S&W in 155 grain or 165 grain.

Do you think they know what they're doing?

They have a long and respected track record in ammunition manufacturing and ballistics studies.

I think the logic of what Roger is saying is sound. We believe a respected ammunition company would not market something that they know doesn't work. The Gold Dot bullet is a proven performer in most loadings.

Dave Spaulding on The Speer Gold Dot | Handgun Combatives

Unfortunately, determining whether or not something works can be very subjective, and it is often driven by profit motives.

180 grain is historically the most popular bullet weight for the .40 S&W because of its roots in the 10mm cartridge. Just like .45 ACP only has one viable bullet weight in most people's minds: 230 grains.

Sometimes rather than fight (or educate) consumer popularity, it is just easier to take advantage of it. People want to buy 180 grn .40 S&W, and they want to shoot it out of the smaller self defense guns so prevalent on the market today. If you were in charge of marketing and making profits for Speer, you either re-label what you've got, or maybe tweak it a bit.

I have not seen FBI protocol testing for this load, so I admit I cannot evaluate it. There is really no other more scientifically accepted apples-to-apples testing for self defense ammo that allows us to compare loads.

The problem is, the FBI tests measure only velocity and an array of terminal performances. Other characteristics come to play for a full self defense evaluation, not the least of which include recoil, muzzle blast and muzzle flash, which can be expected to be greater with any load in shorter barrels. Such characteristics can negatively affect a shooter's ability to put rounds on target accurately and quickly.

Physics don't lie. Given the same basic velocity and subsequent terminal performance, a heavier bullet requires more energy to get it up to speed. That increased energy translates into increased recoil and probably muzzle blast.

According to Speer, the standard Gold Dot .40 180 grn loading out of a 4" barrel develops 1025 fps., an average for most .40 loads. The short barrel (length not specified) loading achieves 950 fps. Is it a different, velocity tuned bullet? Maybe. But if the same diameter bullet achieves the same expansion, penetration depth must be different with a slower velocity. To get the same penetration, the bullet would have to expand less.

Speer Ammo - Ballistics Tables (Check details)

Speer does not give a comparison of terminal performance, expansion & penetration between these two loadings that I can find.

It is not a mistake to use a short barreled Gold Dot loading; it is a choice. Just make sure all the relevant factors are part of that choice to get optimal performance for your needs.

 

[uko7]

Hornady 175 gr critical duty, always feeds and accurate.

 

[tat2dchad]

100% personal opinion
chocolate vs vanilla
40vs 9 etc etc

 

[PR24]

Over penitration and the whole evolution of the personal defense hollow point made huge advancements with bonded and controlled expansion in just the last 10 years let alone the last 100 years. No law enforcements in the country allows the use of fmj and the military doesn't use the FMJ because its a superior design. No one would ever use a FMJ in a 40 S&W for defense considering the caliber round itself was designed for the hollow point. The 45acp is the only FMJ that is close to being safe to not over penetrate. You can drive with your feet but that doesn't make it a good idea. There is not one tactical school that would consider a FMJ in a 9mm or 40s&w a acceptable personal defense bullet.

Check out the 165 Hornady Critical Defese. It has 500+ ftlbs of energy. It feeds reliable in about everything I have seen and also tests very well.
Hornady Critical Defense .40 S&W 165 gr FTX: SIM-TEST* w/denim - YouTube

**Very true! Even NYPD went to GDHP's a few years back because FMJ 9mm wasn't cutting it. See Amadou Diallo shooting; 020499. Detroit isn't "allowed" to use HP's since they're 'mean' bullets...so they use Federal's EFMJ. Better than FMJ's.

My agency is exclusively Speer GDHP's (all calibers). Trust me, they work exactly as advertised. Just ask the Maricopa OME.

The lighter grain GDHP's 155/165 will give you more velocity out of a short bbl like the Sheild. Regardless, stick with factory loaded proven HP's from the big companies: Speer, Remington, Federal, Winchester, Hornady etc. Avoid the "boutique" off the wall specialty BS! They are unproven in the real world, way overpriced & based on youtube science. Mas Ayoob is right; that stuff can cause legal headaches..... Trust me, I deal with lawyers ALL the time.

 

[Brandon1987]

I found that 165 gr Hornady Critical Defense would not feed properly. It would get stuck at an upward angle and wouldn't sit in the barrel. So i picked up some 180 gr Winchester FMJ (white box) ammo and it feeds perfectly. However I'm looking for a great JHP round for carry purposes. Any advice on what works guys?

 

[CB3]

I found that 165 gr Hornady Critical Defense would not feed properly. It would get stuck at an upward angle and wouldn't sit in the barrel. So i picked up some 180 gr Winchester FMJ (white box) ammo and it feeds perfectly. However I'm looking for a great JHP round for carry purposes. Any advice on what works guys?

Have you not even read the thread? The advice you seek is related above in numerous different posts.

 

[Ron AZ]

X … whatever # for Federal 165 gr. HST's. Also have some Hornady Critical Defense 165 gr to use up from when I had a shorter barrel .40, and Hornady Critical Duty 175 gr. that I am more likely to carry outside the house than inside.

 

[Brandon1987]

I was trying to see what other kinds of ammo people would prefer.

 

[jeffreybehr]

I've found that the Federal HST is best.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/415428-40s-w-premium-pd-bullets-we-have-winner.html

 

[mtncharlie1968]

Yes, I sure do. Been to Gunsite 2 times as well as attended other professional training over the years. I also was a sponsored IPSC Shooters for many years.

I can't believe with all the information we have these days that this topic would ever need to be discussed??? .....but here we are.

NO tactical training schools recommend to police or civilian the use of FMJ over a modern hollow point in the 9mm or 40s&w.

Tell me the names of the two schools you know about that recomend FMJ with the 9mm and 40S&W for personal defense ammo??????????
. I'll save you the time, there isn't any.


If you think the military is purposely choosing to use FMJ for any other reason than "The Hague Convention", your sadly misinformed. There is no way the military uses the FMJ (especially in a 9mm) for any tactical superiority over a modern hollow point. That's not my opinion or even debatable. Any research will show this and has been discussed at length. Ironic, isn't it, that exposed lead and hollow point bullets are banned from combat because they are more likely to cause horrible wounds and death?? Isn't that what you want as a civilian???? The best and most lethal bullet to end a confrontation???
Since there isnt any artificial political restrictions hindering police, SWAT or any tactcal team, they never choose to use a fmj and always use the best hollow points because they want to end the threat as quickly as possible.

Not only doesnt any law enforcement use the FMJ but all wildlife fish and game outlaw the use of FMJ to hunt with because of the danger and ineffectiveness compared to any hollow point design.


Last but not least, ....lets not discount the ammo manufactures design and intended purpose directly from the manufacture itself.
On all FMJ boxes or ammo manufactures web site, it list the FMJ for "range use" or "practice only" printed on the box or at the web site. Some even go the extra distance to warn you that this not designed for "personal protection".

(Disclaimer:
Sure, if you are in a life and death situation and all you have is FMJ, then you are going to use them but only in that rare and unique situation because that's your ONLY choice.)

You can drive with your feet but that doesn't mean its a good idea. (and yet some knuckle heads do this too. Perhaps to go against conventional knowledge and common sense).

Here is one of many many videos why NOT to use FMJ.
Hollow Point vs. FMJ---GY6 Ballistics Test #1 - YouTube

To recomend using FMJ over a modern hollow point for self defense is irresponsible when you have the option for a much better bullet.

It came to light in Iraq that Blackwater operatives were using expanding ammunition, they weren't military so the Hague Convention didn't apply to them.
Our soldiers had complained about the lack of stopping power with their M4's, sometimes taking multiple hits to stop their adversary. The Blackwater people had no problem with one hit stops with the same 5.56 rounds using regular expanding hunting rounds. The same applied to the use of expanding rounds in their 9mm sidearm, one shot stops compared to multiple rounds required for hopped up terrorists.

 

[JMichaelTX]

After considerable research, I have selected Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3),
or their HST LE equivalent, P40HST3.

This is my preference for self defense ammo, because:

• It is on the recommended ammo list made by DocGKR, and several other generally accepted authoritative lists.
• It meets/exceeds FBI ammo standards
• It has a high velocity (1130) & energy (468) as compared with other loads
• I can get it for a reasonable price from SGAmmo.com

You may find this survey from Defensive Ammo Choice helpful:

References:
1. TACTICAL® HST® 40 S&W at le.vistaoutdoor.com, official Federal LE site.
2. Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo at AR15.com
3. Defensive Ammo Choice at DefensiveCarry.com