4006 Slide Crack - Anyone Ever See This Before?

[bwh]

All,

I recently bought a 4006 police trade-in that looks like it's got relatively few miles on it. Some moderate holster wear, but that's it.

I was detail stripping it this morning in preparation for refinishing and while inspecting the underside of the slide I noticed this:

The crack is on the breechblock part of the slide, in line with a machined cut just behind the extractor pivot pin hole.

This pistol appears to be an early 4006 and exhibits some of the rough machining S&W can be famous for. At first I suspected it might just be cutting tool chatter marks, but under close inspection is appears to be to be a crack.

I've got two other 40xx 3rd Gen pistols that I checked. While each show this narrow cut none exhibit this cracking. A close inspection of the extractor groove (which is what this crack sits below) shows no sign of the crack extending through the slide body.

So my question now is, has anyone seen this type of cracking before? If yes, is it something that is self limiting or is it something I should bring to S&W's attention? Will they even pay attention to a pistol this old?

Thanks in advance!

Brian

 

[Nframe357]

Wow! No, I've never seen anything like that but it's definetly a matter that I'd take up with S&W! I wouldn't shoot it until I got ahold of them either, better safe than sorry. They have a lifetime warranty but I don't know how far back they go with that, but that is definetly a metal issue so they should stand behind it. Can you tell how deep the crack is?

 

[bwh]

Wow! No, I've never seen anything like that but it's definetly a matter that I'd take up with S&W! I wouldn't shoot it until I got ahold of them either, better safe than sorry. They have a lifetime warranty but I don't know how far back they go with that, but that is definetly a metal issue so they should stand behind it. Can you tell how deep the crack is?

NFrame,

The problem is that I can't tell how deep the crack is. I do know that directly above it is the extractor cut out and the crack has not extended into that area.

I've already sent S&W an email with a high(er) resolution copy of the image to see what they say. While I admit that this pistol is (long) out of warranty I'm curious to see what, if anything, they'll be willing to do about it. Not looking for a free ride, but perhaps it can be solved at little cost with something like a simple relief cut.

I'm really disappointed because this pistol is in otherwise great condition except for some holster wear. I was really looking forward to getting the slide refinished and new springs in it to get it up to 'nearly new' condition.

 

[Fastbolt]

That sort of crack is not a common occurrence, but neither is it exactly an unknown one, either.

I've encountered it among a handful of early 3rd gen 59XX/69XX/39XX pistols.

The first time I brought it to the attention of a S&W armorer instructor he said that it usually occurred because of how thin the metal under the rear of the slide's extractor recess was, and how the older manufacturing methods lacked the ability to get in there and extend the cut further. The explanation involved how more modern cutting methods were able to accomplish machining cuts not possible even a few years ago. It also agreed with an explanation I had received from a factory repair tech.

The crack usually follows the curve your image exhibits, connecting at the inside rear corner of the machined cut. The crack exhibited in your image differs from what I've seen in that it seems not to have connected to the rear of the cut, though.

If you look at various older production 3rd gen 9/.40 slides you'll see that relief cut under the extractor recess varies a bit in length and finish of the end of the cut. Newer cuts are longer and cleaner.

I was told by techs at the factory that sometimes the resulting thin sheet of metal which remains at the rear of the extractor recess (directly to the rear of the relief cut under the extractor recess/slot) would often break off under repeated recoil, unknown to the owner/user, or if it really bothered me it could be knocked/broken off by a small tool tip. The problem was that breaking it off with a tool might cause it to become lodged up within the extractor slot, instead of falling downward. The best recommendation was to leave it alone and ignore it. I was told by more than one person that it was considered non-critical and was only the result of older machining processes.

There's another couple of spots in the slide where this sort of thing can happen among the older production guns, too.

One is where the plunger channels and the firing pin channel come together and there's a couple of very thin walls where one or another of the channels are connected, and on one side of the disconnector notch. Usually recoil forces knock these small pieces loose and they fall away without the owner/user even being aware of it, or causing a problem.

Another spot is where the ejector depressor plunger channel meets the large opening of the manual safety body and is next to the ejector depressor channel. This spot can't be seen unless the safety body is removed from the slide. There's a thin spot connecting the firing pin & ejector depressor plunger channels which could sometimes develop a non-critical crack. At one point during some of the more recent TSW production they decided to start breaking the thin 'bridge' of metal out of the slide at that spot.

The first time I saw it I thought it was a manufacturing defect and called the factory to discuss it with the repair center. I was told that it wasn't a defect, but a new process which was recently implemented in one TSW model (to start) but would eventually be implemented across the whole line, intended to remove a non-critical piece of metal subject to recoil stresses before it might break away during normal use and possibly end up somewhere troublesome.

After I spoke to the tech I checked several other new TSW guns and saw it present in the one model he had mentioned (and in which I had found it), but not in others, also as I had been told. About a year later I was inspecting some other new TSW's and saw that the piece of metal formerly connecting the two channels at that spot was indeed now removed from other guns.

Naturally, you want to listen to whatever answer you receive from the factory in response to your email. They may very well want to examine your gun, or they may tell you what I've previously been told when I've discussed it with them.

FWIW, I've never found it (when present) to be related to a functioning problem in the guns I was responsible for helping to maintain & support.

Now, I certainly don't claim to have the explanation of the condition involved in your particular slide. I can't examine it, or the rest of the gun, online. You need to find out what S&W thinks about it.

I'm just a LE armorer, which means I'm not a factory engineer, technician, gunsmith nor instructor.

I just thought I'd share my experiences and thoughts about what may be a similar condition I've encountered and have had explained by the factory at different times.

Let us know what you hear.

Please feel free to email me if you are interested in some further 'contact' info for the factory.

Best regards.

 

[bwh]

Fastbolt,

Wow! Thanks for that excellent analysis. Like I said, I'll let S&W do the evaluation. If their recommendation is to leave it alone and not worry about it, I'll leave it alone and not worry about it.

Brian

 

[Fastbolt]

You're welcome.

Let us know what S&W tells you about your gun.

 

[Mortech]

Glad I read this thread , upon reading it I decided to take a closer look at the 4026 I bought a few months back . It does have a similiar crack in the same spot . So I'll be waiting to see what S&W tells you also .

 

[bwh]

I didn't hear anything from S&W yesterday, but they could have been closed for Columbus Day. As soon as they reply I'll let everyone know what their advice is. Thanks!

 

[bwh]

Update - Response from S&W

I got this email at 0930 this morning from Mark Rossini at S&W. I included the text of my original email for perspective:

that line is not a crack at all
it is the result of two conflicting cuts -it is normal

-----Original Message-----
From: BWH
Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 4:52 PM
To: Smith & Wesson Support
Subject: Suspected cracking on a Model 4006 slide


Good Day Smith & Wesson!

I recently purchased a Model 4006 pistol (serial number TFL 2xxx). The pistol exhibited only moderate holster wear and was, at purchse, in very good mechanical condition. It appears to exhibit the treatment many police trade-in pistols exhibit - it was carried much but shot only occasionally.

Right after purchasing it I shot 20 rounds of standard pressure commercial 40 S&W range ammunition through it. That was last week. This morning I started to detail strip the pistol in preparation for refinishing and noticed what appears to be a slight crack on the underside of the slide. Please see the attached picture.

At first I thought it might be a tool mark, but under magnification it appears to be a crack.

My questions are as follows:

1. Is this crack in a critical area and does shooting the pistol in this condition present a hazard?

2. Is this crack self-limiting?

3. Is this something S&W can inspect and, if necessary, fix for me?

I realize this is a used firearm and is long out of warranty. However, it is still a very serviceable pistol and if the problem can be fixed at a reasonable cost I'd like to know before scrapping the thing as unservicable.

Thanks in advance!

While a somewhat curt reply, it does reinforce what Fastbolt has already said about the issue - a manufacturing artifact that poses no threat to the safety or servicability of the pistol. So, I'll just shoot the bejeebers out of it and pass it on to my grandkids!

 

[Fastbolt]

Actually, his response is probably better than mine. (Which probably explains why I don't work there. )

Mine is more wordy, though.

The cutting of the extractor recess and the other cut from underneath, up into the extractor recess/slot, results in a small layer of metal left unsupported at the rear of both cuts. Think of it as a false floor of the rear of the extractor recess. Recoil sometimes causes this unsupported bit of metal to crack and even break away. Newer 9/.40 guns have more precise cuts.

That's how it was originally explained to me, anyway.

 

[Nframe357]

I got this email at 0930 this morning from Mark Rossini at S&W. I included the text of my original email for perspective:



While a somewhat curt reply, it does reinforce what Fastbolt has already said about the issue - a manufacturing artifact that poses no threat to the safety or servicability of the pistol. So, I'll just shoot the bejeebers out of it and pass it on to my grandkids!

Sure looks like a crack to me, I'd be a little miffed personally. If it's so common why haven't any of my S&W autos exhibited the same thing? I've had 9's and 45's of differing vintages and I'e never seen that before. I carried a 5906 for years on duty and shot it hard with +p+ ammo and it never showed any signs of cracks??

 

[Fastbolt]

I'd offer that 'normal' and 'common' can be taken differently.

One definition of 'normal', is 'occurring naturally'.

One definition of 'common' is 'occurring or appearing frequently'.

While I personally wouldn't call it common, I'd agree that when it occurs it could be considered normal.

Of the several hundred older 3rd gen pistols I've helped support and maintain over the years I've only seen it occur in a handful of them.

I could see it happening a bit more often with the harder recoiling .40 guns, too.

FWIW, being thicker in various dimensions, the .45 slides lack the 'second' (straight) cut which extends into the bottom of the extractor recess.

I wouldn't get all wrapped up around the axle about it. I was told to ignore it several years ago when I first came across a gun with it, and it seems the company has the same response several years later.

 

[Nframe357]

I'd offer that 'normal' and 'common' can be taken differently.

One definition of 'normal', is 'occurring naturally'.

One definition of 'common' is 'occurring or appearing frequently'.

While I personally wouldn't call it common, I'd agree that when it occurs it could be considered normal.

Of the several hundred older 3rd gen pistols I've helped support and maintain over the years I've only seen it occur in a handful of them.

I could see it happening a bit more often with the harder recoiling .40 guns, too.

FWIW, being thicker in various dimensions, the .45 slides lack the 'second' (straight) cut which extends into the bottom of the extractor recess.

I wouldn't get all wrapped up around the axle about it. I was told to ignore it several years ago when I first came across a gun with it, and it seems the company has the same response several years later.

I know but it just seems to me that S&W just kind of blew it off like everything is ok, it's not this guy bought this 4006 in good faith that it was built to last. Now the slide is cracked for petes sake and they don't seem to care about it, just kind of miffs me that's all. Personally I'd move that gun just as soon as I could, "safe" or not.

 

[Texaspass]

This is all good info. I'll have to look at mine to see what is happening.

 

[Fastbolt]

A thin bit of metal left over during manufacturing because of the way a couple of conflicting machine cuts allowed it to remain, versus an actual crack in the mass of the slide, are sort of two different situations.

The other spots where this has occurred in the slides just aren't as easily visible.

 

[Fastbolt]

I know but it just seems to me that S&W just kind of blew it off like everything is ok, it's not this guy bought this 4006 in good faith that it was built to last. Now the slide is cracked for petes sake and they don't seem to care about it, just kind of miffs me that's all. Personally I'd move that gun just as soon as I could, "safe" or not.

Dunno if I'd react quite that way, myself.

A thin bit of metal left over during manufacturing because of the way a couple of conflicting machine cuts allowed it to remain, versus an actual crack in the mass of the slide, are sort of two different situations.

The other spots where this has previously occurred in the slides just aren't as easily visible.

I've never experienced, or had any of our folks experience, any functioning issues when such circumstances have occurred among a handful of older 3rd gen guns.

I tended to have confidence in the info and assurances I received from the factory folks in this regard, myself.

BTW, bwh, if you'll provide me with an email address (use mine) offline I can send you a .pdf copy of a CHP 2006 report detailing an assessment and recommendation they did prior to replacing their 4006's with the newer 4006TSW's. You might find it interesting.

Also, if it were me, I'd replace the recoil & mag springs of any used gun. S&W recommended mag & recoil spring replacement in their traditional metal-framed guns either every 5 years or every 5,000 rounds. If it were me, though, and I used 155gr loads in a .40 S&W gun, I'd tend toward replacing the springs a bit sooner than that. Just my thoughts. Might as well make sure your mags have the latest light blue .40 followers, too.

 

[bwh]

I know but it just seems to me that S&W just kind of blew it off like everything is ok, it's not this guy bought this 4006 in good faith that it was built to last. Now the slide is cracked for petes sake and they don't seem to care about it, just kind of miffs me that's all. Personally I'd move that gun just as soon as I could, "safe" or not.

Oh, I wouldn't do that! Both Fastbolt and S&W have put my fears to rest regarding the safety and serviceability of this pistol. I now consider it a 'project gun'. I have all new springs on the way from Brownells and Wolff so this pistol will be completely re-sprung, the slide cleaned up (it had some moderate holster wear) and I'll shoot it a lot, periodically checking the crack and report on what's going on.

Also keep in mind that I have S&W's 'official' evaluation of this cracking (a copy of the email is now stored in my firearms record book) so if in the future there is a failure related to this crack I'll just wave the email in their face and ask "what'cha gonna' do for me?"

Brian