41 special

[chillypepper]

Hey guys, been a while. I know a few years back there was a bit of talk about the .41 special. A friend an I have been talking about it lately and I just don't know enough about it to say anything real. I'm hoping some of you that have done it and maybe were in on it, can crank up the wayback machine and give me some links to all the hows and whys and oops.

I've found some info doing the search thing, but it's mostly all speculation. I'd like to see some of the positive real life stuff. I know some of you had good success with it. Thanks in advance cp.

 

[noylj]

Why? If you have a .41 Mag, then you also have a .41 Spl.
Now, if you want to have a custom revolver made in ".41 Spl," with a shorter cylinder, etc. to try to optimize accuracy for the shorter round, it is your money--but what do expect to get out of it other then playing with your own "wildcat?"

 

[chillypepper]

Why? If you have a .41 Mag, then you also have a .41 Spl.
Now, if you want to have a custom revolver made in ".41 Spl," with a shorter cylinder, etc. to try to optimize accuracy for the shorter round, it is your money--but what do expect to get out of it other then playing with your own "wildcat?"

Nail on the head. As to why is because I have stuff and I have machines. I'm not making a mag into a special. I'm building a 41 special. note the word building.

I'm doing for the simple reason of: because I can. What else is there for a single man to do with his evenings, watch tv? sounds great, i'll do that Sunday when the race is on. In the mean time I know some of the guys worried a bunch of good info about this, and I thought I'd ask them, as my search skills seem to be lacking.

Yep my $. 'nuff said there. Please don't take offence, I do what strikes my interests. If someone decided not to like this project, then they really don't wanna see my 9mm revo.

 

[robertrwalsh]

There are one or two people who do this pretty regularly, typically on a .357 platform with a five shot custom cylinder if I remember correctly. In fact there is, or used to be, a place in Florida that specialized in custom built cylinders. I can't remember the name but I bet some reader will.

 

[Doubless]

Yawn... The 41 mag can be downloaded to achieve "41 special" ballistics. Why in the world do you want to do this, other than to have something not many have? Nothing personal, but to me it makes absolutely no sense...

 

[arjay]

A 4 inch L frame 5 shot would be the ticket.

 

[Doubless]

Okay, you want negatives, here you go: this is absolutely a handloader's firearm, which will directly impact you if and when you decide to move it.

It is a trim to length for every piece of brass you intend to shoot in it, and if you own a .41 mag, you now have to keep the brass separate.

I don't know for certain that you can screw a set of 41 mag dies down far enough to crimp the projectile without bottoming the die out on the shell holder. If you can't, you have to either cut the dies or get a set custom cut.

There is no loading data out there for the cartridge. You are entering no man's land when you take the first step.

Finally, you are going to butcher a Smith and Wesson revolver. Why?

And by the way, you have awfully thin skin. I ask a simple question and you get your panties in a wad... But it figures that you would know where the Simpsons are on television... I have no idea.

But here you go: .41 Special-Update

 

[Warren Sear]

A 4 inch L frame 5 shot would be the ticket.

And maybe the same thing in 2-1/2" with round butt.

 

[chillypepper]

Okay, you want negatives, here you go: this is absolutely a handloader's firearm, which will directly impact you if and when you decide to move it.

It is a trim to length for every piece of brass you intend to shoot in it, and if you own a .41 mag, you now have to keep the brass separate.

I don't know for certain that you can screw a set of 41 mag dies down far enough to crimp the projectile without bottoming the die out on the shell holder. If you can't, you have to either cut the dies or get a set custom cut.

There is no loading data out there for the cartridge. You are entering no man's land when you take the first step.

Finally, you are going to butcher a Smith and Wesson revolver. Why?

And by the way, you have awfully thin skin. I ask a simple question and you get your panties in a wad... But it figures that you would know where the Simpsons are on television... I have no idea.

okay, information. That's a great start. I asked for info. I like info. You provided one or two things that are great.

Back once upon a time, several guys set out to make a lighter shooting .41 for a few different reasons. They went through most of the findings here. As it's not a standard round, and the info is hard to come by,I came to the "loading" section to see what I could find out about it. I didn't have much luck with searches, so I asked.

Maybe, just maybe, this.41 special stuff was all before the forum changed hands. You do remember when that happened. lots of things were lost that were mostly comments and not super real threads. But maybe some other stuff was too. Hey, that's okay, if that's what happened. The loads, the pressures and all the other data that was found out then, is around somewhere. I'm just trying to save a little work.

"Finally, you are going to butcher a Smith and Wesson revolver. Why?"


Read my above comments again. I'm going to (possibly, according to what info I find) BUILD one. I'm not going to grab an off the shelf whatever handgun and make it into____fill in the blank. I'm going to grab a hunk of 4140 stick it in the mill and start cutting.

That's why I came to the loading forum. I didn't say "hey, I wanna make my Air crewman into a 41 mag" I'm looking for some data so that I can use it to make a gun(not even close to an air crewman by the way).

I had one other thing to say, but won't because you're right a little bit. I was hoping for info on 41 special, and not what everyone's opinion of it is. This site didn't used to work that way.

The first word out of your reply was "yawn" that makes me boring and insignificant. So, Yes, I might not like you comment. If you can't help in such a worthless project, why bother saying anything.

And, before I get a clever comeback.

I'm just looking for the info on the round. That's it. Thanks.

 

[chillypepper]

I just wanted to say thanks again. That link (and it figures it's Dave's)fills a big gap in what I'm looking for. Hats off for the help.

 

[epj]

In bygone years, I believe both the 686 and the GP 100, as well as possibly a Python or two, have been modified into 6 shot "41 frame" guns chambered for the .41 Special. At one time Starline produced brass. Most loads were in the 900 FPS range, somewhat like the original "police load" .41 mag. If you can build a .41 cal revolver, 6-shot, on the L frame, I'd certainly entertain buying one. I seem to recall that there was a .40 L frame at one time. That would have been close, but then You have to deal with the rimless cartridge. Loading down a N frame will give you the ballistics, but you still have to tote the big gun.

 

[chillypepper]

In bygone years, I believe both the 686 and the GP 100, as well as possibly a Python or two, have been modified into 6 shot "41 frame" guns chambered for the .41 Special. At one time Starline produced brass. Most loads were in the 900 FPS range, somewhat like the original "police load" .41 mag. If you can build a .41 cal revolver, 6-shot, on the L frame, I'd certainly entertain buying one. I seem to recall that there was a .40 L frame at one time. That would have been close, but then You have to deal with the rimless cartridge. Loading down a N frame will give you the ballistics, but you still have to tote the big gun.

You make a couple good points, I wouldn't cut up a snake. And it'd have to be a low down dirty, rusty dog for me to change up a Smith. I ain't going to do a double action. Not from scratch anyway. All the D/A parts that I have are for 1899 type K frames and I sure as heck ain't gonna waste those for this. Single action parts are way easier to make in the home shop. I'm a home builder. That means I don't work on other peoples stuff. I get a bug for something and I go for it.

The range (pressure vs. power) that the special works at is what interests me. This ain't about some greatest thing ever. It's about what I want to build. If it were just grabbing a handful of handgun, I got a Super redhawk right over there. I got a Highway patrolman under my pillow.

It ain't about what I have or can get. it's about what I can do with my time, my $ and my effort. Yet, I'd really like it not to blow up in my hand. So the whole research thing is required. And yes a have built a gun or two from nothing and ain't blown up yet.

Hopefully after saying that, soem of you will know my POV and give some leads.

sorry if I was a bit of a ... guess I got to used to a certain AR forum or something.

 

[Doubless]

I guess I owe an apology: the "yawn" was about the round, not you. So if you took offense, it was misunderstood.

I will add one final bit of information to this thread and then bow out, because I am a 41 mag freak, and to cut the case is doing nothing that can't be done by downloading, as I see it. But that is just me...

Okay, here you go:

Taffin did a full workup of a 41 Special he had Bowen do. A search will bring it up. Bowen will do them as will Clements. That tells me the round has at least some following. I know for a fact that Bowen won't do a 41 Mag conversion on a GP because I asked him in a phone call a few years ago. The Special is evidently a better option; Taffin's pressures, if I remember correctly, weren't above about 25K. But I might be wrong: Pearce Layne did a workup on the round in a Handloader edition a few years ago, and the pressure quotes may have come from his article, not Taffin's.

Have fun; again, it wasn't you. It was the round. As a handloader, I can turn my magnums into specials...

 

[chillypepper]

I guess I owe an apology: the "yawn" was about the round, not you. So if you took offense, it was misunderstood.

I will add one final bit of information to this thread and then bow out, because I am a 41 mag freak, and to cut the case is doing nothing that can't be done by downloading, as I see it. But that is just me...

Okay, here you go:

Taffin did a full workup of a 41 Special he had Bowen do. A search will bring it up. Bowen will do them as will Clements. That tells me the round has at least some following. I know for a fact that Bowen won't do a 41 Mag conversion on a GP because I asked him in a phone call a few years ago. The Special is evidently a better option; Taffin's pressures, if I remember correctly, weren't above about 25K. But I might be wrong: Pearce Layne did a workup on the round in a Handloader edition a few years ago, and the pressure quotes may have come from his article, not Taffin's.

Have fun; again, it wasn't you. It was the round. As a handloader, I can turn my magnums into specials...

Well I think we got that cleared up easy enough.

Don't stop now, I got more than I had earlier. and am off to see what else I can find.

Doubless,

My loading bench is in my bedroom. Yeah, I'm a single guy. The only thing I do reloading wise outside is melt lead. I melt the big stuff into smaller ingots at the shop, I cast bullets out in the shed. The cartridge making happens less than 10' from where I'm sitting now.

My .44 magnum and my .357 mag are my babies. when it's time to take 'em work we GO. Here in Texas that normally means hogs. I rarely use my .38's or .32's any more. The 9mm's still get toted around regular, but for different reasons.

Most of the time I carry a .22, most every day. Unless I know we going after something tough. then I grab a bit more gun.

I'm starting to think that 'cause you and I can argue a bit and sort it out, that I'm gonna like you. That ain't a bad thing in my eyes. Keeps things a bit more real.

 

[epj]

The entire appeal of the .41 Special is that it can be done in 6 shot configuration on a smaller frame than the .41 mag. A 200+ grain bullet @ 900-950fps is pretty formidable as a SD round. Probably good for a lot of other uses as well. I've owned several .41 mags over the years. 1 Blackhawk and several 57's. My usual loads were in the "Special" category most of the time. Way back when, some were punching out Pythons to ,41 mag. There is always the story that they came from the factory. Colt may have done this, but they didn't let any out the door if they did. Not enough metal in the .41 Colt frame and cylinder to handle the full blown .41 mag. The low power load was probably ok. Just no way to keep the full house stuff out of the smaller guns. This is the whole premise of the .41 Mag.

 

[jaymoore]

A friend of mine has a .41 Special 686 six shot. Has been enjoying it for years. Even hunted deer with it with good results. I think it's a grand idea, but I'm not into "make your ears bleed" loads, either. Sort of an L frame equivalent to the .45 Colt in an N frame. Very nice packages, both of 'em.

 

[Jellybean]

Chillypepper, I love everything ".41" and love to build things too, I'd also love to have a milling machine, but that'll never happen. Anyway, you have my attention.

I know there were more discussions than the one posted above, because I was in on some of them. The .41 special case was made to fit in with the other "specials", ie: case length of 1.160", max pressure I believe was the same as that for the .44 special, since that is it's closest relative.

I've never owned a true .41 Special, but I have played around with the idea, along with a .41 Russian and a .41 AE Rimmed, plus a few others. Since you are making the gun from scratch and are going to be making all your own ammo, you can pretty well load it up to whatever your design will take.

Once you choose your pressure limits, you can use data for .41 magnum, 10 mm auto, .41 AE or .40 S&W cartridges as bases.

 

[franzas]

In bygone years, I believe both the 686 and the GP 100, as well as possibly a Python or two, have been modified into 6 shot "41 frame" guns chambered for the .41 Special. At one time Starline produced brass. Most loads were in the 900 FPS range, somewhat like the original "police load" .41 mag. If you can build a .41 cal revolver, 6-shot, on the L frame, I'd certainly entertain buying one. I seem to recall that there was a .40 L frame at one time. That would have been close, but then You have to deal with the rimless cartridge. Loading down a N frame will give you the ballistics, but you still have to tote the big gun.

Due to the much lower pressures of a "special" round, would it be possible to cram 6 .41 rounds into an L frame? If so, that would be awesome. I'd buy one too.

EDIT: jaymoore answered my question. Now I really want one.

CP-
I'd love to see where this project goes. Good luck with it.

 

[Warren Sear]

The Colt E and I frames were referred to as "41 frames", since at one time the Army Special/Official Police were chambered in 41 Colt. The S&W L frame copied the Colt E/I frame dimensions. Therefore, it seems entirely feasible to chamber a S&W L frame in a lower pressured 41 Special with 6 shots.

 

[Nemo288]

Brass is available.

Qual Cart 41 Special Brass at Midway

The reviews are not stellar but I am sure there are other sources too.

Some other links:

ammunition_ready_for_the_41_special

41-Special-Brass-Properly-Headstamped-41spbrass

Taffin Tests the 41 Special

Range-Report-41-Special

I hope you succeed in your project. Sounds like fun.
You can always cut down the mag brass.
It is some work but rewarding to shoot.
The heavier brass will last forever shot at 15-20 KPSI.
Let us know when you get the thing built and we can work on loading for it.

While I don't have any of your skill at machining, I do like manipulating brass.
I grew up building radios in the tube era and learned a lot about hand metal working
that came in handy when working with wildcat rounds.
I guess some don't fully understand a couple of truisms that are actually true here:
You usually get out of a project what you put in.
And one I get often at the mostly defense pistol range:
"Why do you shoot THAT thing?" (445 SuperMag)
"Because it's FUN!" (and I can).
or: "What are you going to DO with that thing?"
"Shoot it!"

Again, have fun. That's why we are here.

---
Nemo

 

[Kilibreaux]

A genuine apology isn't "Sorry if you took offense," it's "I'm sorry to have offended you."

VERY different meanings...and we all know it.

OP: Build the .41 special and be happy with the fact that YOU have the skill, and knowledge, and the tools to do it....that's what counts.

I've done a few "scratch" builds myself over the years and have ALWAYS faced the inevitable "what do you want to do that for?" The non-inventor will NEVER understand the mind of the inventor.

 

[jaymoore]

Due to the much lower pressures of a "special" round, would it be possible to cram 6 .41 rounds into an L frame? If so, that would be awesome. I'd buy one too.

EDIT: jaymoore answered my question. Now I really want one.

CP-
I'd love to see where this project goes. Good luck with it.

Refer to Post #12 in the linked thread below for some tasty photos of the 686 conversion and then see where your enthusiasm level spikes.

Range Report - .41 Special

Thanks, Nemo288, for the link!

 

[Jellybean]

The S&W L frame copied the Colt E/I frame dimensions. Therefore, it seems entirely feasible to chamber a S&W L frame in a lower pressured 41 Special with 6 shots.

Sort of, as far as the feasibility goes. Looking at the actual dimensions and pressures involved, I would be very concerned about converting an old Colt .41 to .41 special. Things aren't always as they sound. But, the issue here isn't so much about the dimensions, as it is about the manufacturing processes.

For additional fuel for the discussion:
As I said earlier, I love everything .41, even the .41 Colt that isn't a true .41. But I do have a realistic side that isn't affected by my personal opinions. If you read modern descriptions of the .41 Colt, it is made to sound like an anemic, wimpy "poser" cartridge. However if you read older opinions, you hear a much different story, especially when you consider it is still being compared to cartridges such as the S&W .44 special, and the .38-40 ( which is the ballistic equivalent to the "perfect" police cartridge, the .40 S&W). So why the discrepancy? It is due to our modern gun writers...so when they come up with something "new", I always look at it very closely to make sure it's not just a case of "That's my invention!" or "That was my idea to do that!". In the matter of the .41 Special, well, it's a .41.

 

[Doubless]

A genuine apology isn't "Sorry if you took offense," it's "I'm sorry to have offended you."

VERY different meanings...and we all know it.

OP: Build the .41 special and be happy with the fact that YOU have the skill, and knowledge, and the tools to do it....that's what counts.

I've done a few "scratch" builds myself over the years and have ALWAYS faced the inevitable "what do you want to do that for?" The non-inventor will NEVER understand the mind of the inventor.

Kilibreaux, I don't recollect anyone asking you what I meant, or what my intent was. You are free to butt out. The OP and I worked through our differences, and I see no need for you to stick your nose into something that has already been resolved.

And FWIW, you are not "inventing" anything; you are re-tracing steps already made.

 

[ddixie884]

.41spl, I have one built on a 686 by Clements. I have posted in nearly every .41spl thread on this forum. Search my Posts for more info. I also have a small quantity of real Star-Line .41spl brass. Good luck in your endeavors. I am very happy with my .41spl revolver.

 

[Boxhead]

I have one built on a Ruger Single Six. I bought 500 pieces of properly headstamped Starline brass four or five years ago from a guy that had a run made. Paid about the same as what 41 Mag brass was selling for. I load 220 gr SWC's to 800 fps and enjoy the hell out of the lightweight little piece.

 

[Kilibreaux]

Kilibreaux, I don't recollect anyone asking you what I meant, or what my intent was. You are free to butt out. The OP and I worked through our differences, and I see no need for you to stick your nose into something that has already been resolved.

And FWIW, you are not "inventing" anything; you are re-tracing steps already made.

I'm amazed that things like YOU can make such statements as you have without intervention by moderators.

I personally don't CARE WHAT YOU THINK OR SAY because your initial statement was completely self-serving and self-egrandizing and DISINGENUOUS!
What-EVER you have "worked out with the OP" is meaningless to ME as a third party observer who has SEEN YOUR TYPE for decades...

I'll probably get banned for telling you like it is, while YOU will probably get a gold star for being a person who lacks character, integrity, and honor...but hey, this is JUST A FORUM where people like YOU can speak as you wish without fear of direct redress.

 

[Jellybean]

ddixie884, thanks for stepping in. I seem to recall you are a local authority on the .41 Special, do you remember what the maximum pressure was set at? I know I can probably find it on the net, but I was hoping you could save me some steps.

 

[ddixie884]

I have used John Taffin's load data as my guide. His top loads all give easy one thumb ejection, although some times the cases seem to fall out by their own weight when inverted. There is no SAAMI pressure limit, but it would be from 15.5 to 18K like other "Specials". I think Taffins loads go to about 25K. Boxhead's little single six is special, and about the nicest 686 I've seen had a 4in mountain gun barrel, and belongs to MadBadger.

 

[Jellybean]

Thanks ddixie884,
I wasn't sure if he had kept the pressures in the "specials" range, and if so which one he'd used.

That mountain gun barrel on a 686 sounds like a real good idea. I'd carried a couple 686's on duty and didn't care for them at all. With all that weight I'd rather carry an N frame, especially since a lot of that weight was in the barrel.

Over the last few days, after reading this post, I starting working on a project that I would think would be ideal for a "police frame" sized handgun, and have a better choice of available bullets. I started with a .30-30 Win. case and by the time I got done I had a case that looked pretty much like a .401 Herters powermag. I've never fired, or even seen one, but that is one cartridge that someone should have paid more attention too. Unfortunately I don't have money for projects anymore, because I still have those 686s.