.41 Volcanic round
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Thanks for posting, very interesting
Absolutely ingenious design. Caseless cartridge from the mid-19th century.
Roy Jinks History of Smith & Wesson has a diagram of the Volcanic round. It was used in both the Volcanic pistol and rifle. The Smith & Wesson Volcanic lever action rifles were .50 and .41 calibers. The pistols were made in .31 and .41 caliber.
One can only imagine what Smith & Wesson would have become if they had not sold their Volcanic Rifle patents to Oliver Winchester. Here is a .41 Volcanic Smith & Wesson rifle. What a beautiful rifle and made in the 1850s!
One can only imagine what Smith & Wesson would have become if they had not sold their Volcanic Rifle patents to Oliver Winchester. Here is a .41 Volcanic Smith & Wesson rifle. What a beautiful rifle and made in the 1850s!
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Hi There,
Thanks for posting your pics. That original round is pretty corroded.
Was this a relic dug up from a battlefield?
Being a fan of both S&W's and Winchesters, I think that there
mutual origins is fascinating.
I have been curious about the "rocket ball" round. What happened
to the metal disk in the base of the round when the round was
fired? I would think that it would have been blown out when
fired. So, did it remain in the barrel? It would have been smaller
than the bore so it wouldn't present much of an obstruction.
Did they figure that the next round would just push it out?
Also, how did one eject a live round? I see nothing that an
extractor could grab to pull it out of the chamber. Just curious.
Cheers,
Webb
Thanks for posting your pics. That original round is pretty corroded.
Was this a relic dug up from a battlefield?
Being a fan of both S&W's and Winchesters, I think that there
mutual origins is fascinating.
I have been curious about the "rocket ball" round. What happened
to the metal disk in the base of the round when the round was
fired? I would think that it would have been blown out when
fired. So, did it remain in the barrel? It would have been smaller
than the bore so it wouldn't present much of an obstruction.
Did they figure that the next round would just push it out?
Also, how did one eject a live round? I see nothing that an
extractor could grab to pull it out of the chamber. Just curious.
Cheers,
Webb
The old saying locked and loaded come to mind, but in the case of the Volcanics, loaded and locked is more accurate. Once loaded, your only choice would be to lower the hammer or shoot the round.
The cork might not exit the barrel either??
The cork might not exit the barrel either??
Chain fire
Another major problem with the early volcanic design is the rocket ball conical bullet would reside up against the live primer of the next live round in the tubular magazine. Which could ignite the rounds in a chain fire and cause an explosion in the magazine. It's documented as actually occurring during period of use. That's why they went to the flat nose bullet in the Henry and 66' Winchester tubular magazine rifles. I'm not sure if the rocket ball ever saw a flat nose bullet to eliminate that problem?
Murph
Another major problem with the early volcanic design is the rocket ball conical bullet would reside up against the live primer of the next live round in the tubular magazine. Which could ignite the rounds in a chain fire and cause an explosion in the magazine. It's documented as actually occurring during period of use. That's why they went to the flat nose bullet in the Henry and 66' Winchester tubular magazine rifles. I'm not sure if the rocket ball ever saw a flat nose bullet to eliminate that problem?
Murph
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Hi There,
I read that this exact happenstance occurred to B. T. Henry
while working on the Henry Rifle. He loaded some rounds
into the magazine and rotated the magazine cover back
into position and the spring snapped the follower back down
against the rounds in the mag and they went off!
After he regained his senses, he had an epiphany. Up to this
point, the fulminate was spread across the whole inside base
(head) of the case. Henry realized that the priming compound
only needed to be in the hollow rim area so he designed equipment
that would spin the cases so the priming compound would move
to the rim area when applied (and still wet).
Cheers,
Webb
I read that this exact happenstance occurred to B. T. Henry
while working on the Henry Rifle. He loaded some rounds
into the magazine and rotated the magazine cover back
into position and the spring snapped the follower back down
against the rounds in the mag and they went off!
After he regained his senses, he had an epiphany. Up to this
point, the fulminate was spread across the whole inside base
(head) of the case. Henry realized that the priming compound
only needed to be in the hollow rim area so he designed equipment
that would spin the cases so the priming compound would move
to the rim area when applied (and still wet).
Cheers,
Webb
I don't know for sure. If it was dug up, it wasn't I that found it.
DWalt
Member
Long ago, I had a Volcanic pistol, but no ammunition for it. I don't remember the caliber. Among other problems there wasn't much room for powder in the ball cavity, so it was weak. I remember that in one of the earlier editions of Gun Digest, there was a comprehensive article about the Volcanics.
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Accurate evaluation
There is a wonderful book on the history of the Volcanic Firearms written by Lewis & Rutter. Lots of great information and outstanding research. Along with high quality photos.
The one issue that has always been lacking is accurate research on the 41 caliber during the early black powder era. Both the early Volcanic and the 41 derringer rounds. They were not barn burners by todays standards but they were also not anemic. Modern evaluations are often poorly researched.
The problem with the 41 rocket ball was not the lesser powder charge. It was the poor early ignition design accompanied by an extremely short viable lifespan. In other words, they poorly ignited the main charge to begin with and became duds very quickly due to the early design and ignition material used failing in short order.
I've been reading a lot lately about the viable lifespan of early copper cased black powder cartridges. According to the Chief of Army ordnance records, significant corrosion occurs in less than 2 years! That's why they went to brass cases. I would speculate that the early 41 Rocket Ball ammo was good for less than 1 year! After which it would miss-fire or not go off at all.
If one was to manufacture new, viable ammo using a matching powder of say Swiss black powder in FFFFG and attached a fresh hot reliable primer with the correct sized and lubed bullet? You might be surprised at the actual original performance of the "Rocket Ball 41"! Shot from an 8" barrel repeater? I wouldn't want to be in front of it.
Murph
There is a wonderful book on the history of the Volcanic Firearms written by Lewis & Rutter. Lots of great information and outstanding research. Along with high quality photos.
The one issue that has always been lacking is accurate research on the 41 caliber during the early black powder era. Both the early Volcanic and the 41 derringer rounds. They were not barn burners by todays standards but they were also not anemic. Modern evaluations are often poorly researched.
The problem with the 41 rocket ball was not the lesser powder charge. It was the poor early ignition design accompanied by an extremely short viable lifespan. In other words, they poorly ignited the main charge to begin with and became duds very quickly due to the early design and ignition material used failing in short order.
I've been reading a lot lately about the viable lifespan of early copper cased black powder cartridges. According to the Chief of Army ordnance records, significant corrosion occurs in less than 2 years! That's why they went to brass cases. I would speculate that the early 41 Rocket Ball ammo was good for less than 1 year! After which it would miss-fire or not go off at all.
If one was to manufacture new, viable ammo using a matching powder of say Swiss black powder in FFFFG and attached a fresh hot reliable primer with the correct sized and lubed bullet? You might be surprised at the actual original performance of the "Rocket Ball 41"! Shot from an 8" barrel repeater? I wouldn't want to be in front of it.
Murph
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A fascinating early step in cartridge development though not a particularly successful one. A step along the road to a couple more fruitful designs in both guns and ammunition. I had 4 of these at one time, acquired when I bought an entire ammo collection to get the few items I wanted for my own collecting interests. They were mismarked as "minie balls". Eventually sold them off at one of the collector club shows as my primary collector interest is rim fire designs. Cool item to see though!
An interesting video from Rock Island Auctions with lots of details about Volcanic No.2 ammunition for those interested. The box below was sold for $43,000 in 2020.
Original Volcanic "Rocket Ball" Cartridges - YouTube
These look nearly as "rough" as mine does. I guess that's normal over time and suggests mine was not a battlefield find as "dug up"?
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Hi There,
That is possible. I think it has a lot to do with the lead alloy used.
I have old ammo in my "Ubiquitous" bullet jar that hasn't corroded
and I have reloads that I cast my own bullets for that show
significant corrosion on the exposed lead after only 4 or 5
years.
Cheers,
Webb
That is possible. I think it has a lot to do with the lead alloy used.
I have old ammo in my "Ubiquitous" bullet jar that hasn't corroded
and I have reloads that I cast my own bullets for that show
significant corrosion on the exposed lead after only 4 or 5
years.
Cheers,
Webb
Modern evaluation vs original
Just wanted to present an "AUTHENTIC" evaluation during the period of use for the Volcanic repeater. Pretty impressive evaluation from the time this firearm was manufactured and from people who owned the gun if you take the time to "read" the posted photos.
Murph
Just wanted to present an "AUTHENTIC" evaluation during the period of use for the Volcanic repeater. Pretty impressive evaluation from the time this firearm was manufactured and from people who owned the gun if you take the time to "read" the posted photos.
Murph
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DWalt
Member
By no stretch of the imagination is the .41 Volcanic a powerhouse. From what little I have found, it carried a 6.5 grain BP charge, with a projectile MV of around 250 ft/sec. it has been compared ballistically to the .41 RF Derringer. That may not be a fair comparison due to the very short barrel length of the Derringer.
Early priming was typically based on Mercury fulminate. Among its other problems, Mercury fulminate had a short shelf life, decomposing quickly at higher storage temperatures, possibly on the order of a few years or less. For use in metallic cartridges, it was replaced by chlorate-based priming compositions by the late 19th-early 20th Century. Those had a far longer shelf life.
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Poor research
The rating given to the 41 Volcanic "Rocket Ball" round is the result of a poorly researched evaluation that has somehow been excepted as authentic.
Attached is an early GOEX factory loading data sheet. Take the time to read it carefully. What you will notice is the absolute lowest FPS rating given to a black powder pistol load is 550 FPS with as low as 4 grains of black powder charge!
GOEX was an excellent black powder, however if you perform a couple thousand hours of research to write a book you'll find out that the early "Sporting powder" used in the 1800's is about 15% more powerful than GOEX.
The 280 FPS rating given the volcanic is honestly ridiculous. If you think about it with an open mind you might realize and recognize the gross error.
I performed extensive research for a book I wrote on the 41 Rimfire and the minimum FPS is 605 from an authentic antique derringer of that era properly loaded with black powder. That's minimum! The lower ratings given and found on the internet for this very early derringer round are gross errors that resulted from very poor research and field tests actually published admitting the use of ammo over 75 years old!
Murph
The rating given to the 41 Volcanic "Rocket Ball" round is the result of a poorly researched evaluation that has somehow been excepted as authentic.
Attached is an early GOEX factory loading data sheet. Take the time to read it carefully. What you will notice is the absolute lowest FPS rating given to a black powder pistol load is 550 FPS with as low as 4 grains of black powder charge!
GOEX was an excellent black powder, however if you perform a couple thousand hours of research to write a book you'll find out that the early "Sporting powder" used in the 1800's is about 15% more powerful than GOEX.
The 280 FPS rating given the volcanic is honestly ridiculous. If you think about it with an open mind you might realize and recognize the gross error.
I performed extensive research for a book I wrote on the 41 Rimfire and the minimum FPS is 605 from an authentic antique derringer of that era properly loaded with black powder. That's minimum! The lower ratings given and found on the internet for this very early derringer round are gross errors that resulted from very poor research and field tests actually published admitting the use of ammo over 75 years old!
Murph
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