410 Reloading

[Paul in Nevada]

Here comes a long story nobody asked for before I state my question:
When I was a kid my buddy had a single shot 410. I don't remember the make and model. When we were too little to swing a 12ga we would take turns with the 410 busting clay pigeons. Using a 410 to shoot pigeons makes you a good shot. When you get good enough to hit two clays in one throw with a single shot break action you are damn good.
So my buddy had the shotgun, I had the Honda Trail 70. We would take turns driving vs carrying the gun while patrolling the logging roads for grouse, quail, and squirrels. Many times we would bring meat back to camp while the grown men got nothing.
So I have had these H&R single shot receivers in my safe for 10+ years. On a whim, I bought a 410 barrel to relive the glory days. Well... It looks like 410 has gone out of style.When you can find ammo it's crazy expensive. So I figured I would load my own. Where are all the hulls? There are people on GB selling fired hulls for $1 a piece. Discouraging.
So my question to the forum is, are there any reliable sources for 410 components? I have the primers, that's about all I can find. Also, why isn't there a way to reload 410 on a single stage cartridge press? The case is no larger than 45LC, and shorter than a loaded 30-06. I have never loaded for shotshell so forgive my ignorance.

 

[venomballistics]

The entire ammo scene is priced for rape.
Benjamin Dover seems to be everywhere.
I've heard of shotshell reloading dies. Never seen them though.
Lee precision makes a serviceable press for standard length shells

 

[s&wchad]

If you're only going to shoot a box or two a year, stick with factory shells. If you plan on shooting multiple flats per year, it's worth reloading.

.410 is still popular with skeet shooters. Many of us reload and treasure the fired hulls, but some only fire factory shells. You can occasionally buy hulls at a local gun club. $1/each is nuts; that's more than a box of good target loads. Most small bore shooter buy factory shells to get the hulls. You only use 14 grains of 296 and a half ounce of shot, so the hulls are a big part of the cost. Unfortunately, they don't last as long as 12 and 20 gauge.

.410 is a bit tricky to reload and require adequate wad pressure (like all shotgun shells). You might be able to load some with a Lee Loader, but it's going to be slow and you might not get good results. Quality hulls and following appropriate published load data are a must.

Winchester AA hulls are my favorite. I use 296 powder, standard 209 primers, Winchester or Remington wads and load with #9 shot. You can use the same volume of #8 shot, but the pellet count goes down. My .410 press is an old MEC 650-85, which is manually indexed. My 12, 20 and 28 gauge presses are MEC 9000's, which automatically rotates the shell plate. .410's are skinny, a bit tippy and don't have much of a crimp, so a manual indexing press suits me just fine and results in less spilled shot (most of the time).

 

[Nevada Ed]

A pistol in .410 is really, just a snake gun.

For game, a shotgun is needed and for trap you need two shots on a lot of the games.

Not only is this little shell expensive to load but components are hard to find.
I would ask myself if I really want to get into loading this hull
and if I will be shooting it enough, to load for it, with the cost of a set up

then the cost of materials on top of that.

If you jump into the waters;
I have some hulls and boxes, that we can talk about.

Good luck.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

I could see shooting a few hundred rounds a year. Like i said, this is a nostalgia project for me. I remember the single shot being a great introduction to clays and small game hunting. Then again, maybe the young people I have in mind for this gun won't be interested. I will still go on some rabbit hunting walks with it either way.
I have two more of these H&R receivers. The next barrels on my wishlist are 22 Hornet and 357 mag. Scarce as hen's teeth, though.

 

[s&wchad]

I think of .410 skeet as a game for top flight shooters. There's less recoil, but lead and follow through are much more critical.

A 20 Gauge is probably a better choice to teach kids and women. The shells are a lot cheaper and they have a better chance of hitting their target. That's what we provide for the junior shotgun program at the club.

 

[GypsmJim]

A dear old friend was retiring and moving out of state and gave me his Dad's 410. He swore that Dad used the gun with slugs for deer, and that he took many. Even after telling him that a 410 was not legal for deer, he still swore that's what he used.

Regardless, I bought a few boxes of shells and had a hoot shooting them. Now, I reload EVERYTHING, so using factory ammo was an anomaly for me. So, I was able to find some wads and stocked up a bunch. But, reloading equipment was an issue.

Back in the day of the original whack-a-mole Lee Loader, they made sets for all shotgun calibers. Lo and behold, I found one in like new condition on EBay. Forget that they wanted 4x what it cost new, but I bought it anyway.

They load up nicely with IMR 4227.

 

[Markpixs]

Big fan of the 410 bore for skeet and sporting clays, but i use an O/U since there's doubles on both. Could likely find a used MEC Jr. 600, but I use a 9000 to up production. 296/H110 are the go-to powders, tried Lil Gun but burnt up the hulls pretty quickly. If you're still needing hulls I can send you 100 or so once-fired Winchester AA hulls for $20 shipped(mostly to cover postage), to get you going. PM me if you're interested. Have a few around here and these are from a registered shoot so had to shoot factory shells and had the hulls stashed till needed.

 

[Bib]

I reloaded and shot .410 years ago when I was shooting a lot of skeet. Now I'm lucky to shoot 3-400 targets a year. Still have my reloader (MEC 650) No 410 shotgun in my arsenal though. I have a very old pair of the all steel Savage Four-Tenner tubes that I stick in my 101 12 ga.

 

[Model52guy]

You saw S&W chads post,,,,, Now you know where all the 410 hulls are.

 

[2152hq]

I use a Mec650 single stage to load 410.
I use LilGun. I know a lot of people don't seem to like it but it's always worked well for me.
I load strictly the 2 1/2" shells and 1/2oz shot. Usually #9's.

I load multiple brands of hulls all the same.
I load Win AA (both old and new), Remington whatever color, Federal and a few misc brand from here and there.
Federal cases are not my favorite. They don't crimp as nicely as the others and sometimes refuse to chamber smoothly. So I save them for the 1st rd (chambered) on a 'double' in skeet or SC.

You should be able to buy some emptys (once fired) off of one of the Sporting Clays websites, Skeet or Trap shooting web sites.
Even a WTB on something like the DoubleGun.com website will likely turn up some. You have a nice offer from Markpixs.

I use the same load and wad (WAA410) or whatever # it is.
I use some ClayBuster clones of the AA wad as well. Cheaper,,at least they were when I bought them.

ANy extra room on the top of the shot in the hull I drop a cheerio on top and then crimp. Always a nice solid crimp and never worry about the difference in hull capacity. Song Birds like it,,probably.
I swap primers as well,,cheapest get the job. Still working on Cheddites marked $25/1000.
I do the same routine loading 12ga.
I shoot all vintage shotguns,,pre-ww2 and many pre WW1.

My Win42 pre-war skeet breaks clay birds just fine when I do my part.

Loading 410 is the cheapest shotshell round in the group.
1/2oz of shot gives you around 750+ loads from a bag of shot.
12 to 14 gr of powder. Primer is the same cost as are the wads no matter the gauge.

Pellets come out of the bbl at the same 1200fps average vel as any field load 12, 16 or 20.
There's just less of them, that's all. Most 410's pattern better with something less than the normally provided Full choke. But a few shots at paper will tell the tale.
Keep in mind the 410 has somewhat less range only because the pattern gets thin, less shot.


I shoot 5/8oz in 12ga now (3 cheerios on top!) . Full choke w/#8's breaks clays out to 40yrds and more.

 

[McShooty]

Here is a company that has lots of stuff for shotshell loading. You can buy primed cases and they can be shipped without a hazmat. Unfortunately, they are subject to the same supply problems as everyone else and may not have what you want when you want it.

Shotshell reloading supplies, components, & accessories: Ballistic Products

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

I have been shooting and loading 410's for years. I have a 410 0/U and a 410 semi-auto. I use them for skeet, doves and rabbits. I first loaded 3" on an old Mec 600. Now I load 2 1/2 in and 3 in on a newer 600. All it takes is the short kit(spacer) and a different charge bar. About a 5 min. swap. I probably load 50-60 boxes a year. Winchester and Cheddite hulls are my favorite. Followed by Remington. Federal 410 hulls are sorriest of the of the bunch. They go in the trash. I load them with #2400 powder.

 

[ggibson511960]

I've loaded 410 for years on a Mec 600, all 2-12 in. target loads of 1/2 oz. #9 shot over Lil Gun, pretty much duplicating Win AA's. To get going I simply bought flats of AA's. Bob Brister revealed that 410's are superior bird guns to a 12 ga. at short range over dogs. The long shot column deforms more shot, opening up the pattern of a 410 wider than a 12 ga out to about 10 yards, making the little gun chain blue lightning on flushed birds over dogs, if you're quick. The pattern blows up to useless beyond 30 yards and the small shot have pretty much spent their energy, hence the adage small shot for small gauges as it all comes out the muzzle at 1200 fps. Much fun to play with and your shoulder never has strawberries after a round. It's delicious fun to beat guys with 12 ga.'s at skeet and sporting clays, or simply blame the 410 when you don't.

 

[2152hq]

If you want to just hand load with minimum tools and use all brass cases, you can use 303British brass. They give you a 2 1/4" case.
30-40Krag brass will fireform out straight just a touch longer.

444Marlin brass works good as well.

9.3x74R rifle brass will give you a full 3" straight 410 all brass case.

These all have a bit more room inside than a standard 410 sshotshell hull as there is no bulky base wad. The brass wall construction is thinner than the plastic shotshell as well.
So you have a bit more capacity dispite the shorter length of the 303 and 30-40 brass length.

Use punched out card wads for over powder, filler and over shot.
The over shot can be crimped in place by running the finished case into a reloading die that will lightly turn the top edge over.

Most simply glue the wad in place. White glue works for rounds handeled carefully. You can smear a dab of cheap window&door caulking around the top and let it cure for a day. That worked perfect for me when I was making shot loads for a .500 x 3" BPE rifle.

No real need to size and resize the brass for use in a single shot. Just punch out the primer and reseat a new one again. Then load the components.

Here's a couple articles about it. There are plenty others on the net.

\.444 Marlin cases to .410 shotgun

Ed Harris: How to Make and Load All-Brass .410 Shotshells. – www.GrantCunningham.com

The 9.3x74R brass is $$ as a rule but sometimes once fired stuff comes up for sale.

30-40Krag seems to be a ghost lately but it's out there..

Any brass will be more money than once fired 410 hulls, but handled carefully, there are pretty much everlasting hulls in 410.

20 or 30 cases would seem to be enough to satisfy the urge to reload by these methods!,,it is a bit labor intensive
,,,and be enough to stroll around the woods and fields and enjoy shooting the old breakopen and not feel the pinch of OTC 410 shell prices.

 

[ggibson511960]

If you want to just hand load with minimum tools and use all brass cases, you can use 303British brass. They give you a 2 1/4" case.
30-40Krag brass will fireform out straight just a touch longer.

444Marlin brass works good as well.

9.3x74R rifle brass will give you a full 3" straight 410 all brass case.

These all have a bit more room inside than a standard 410 sshotshell hull as there is no bulky base wad. The brass wall construction is thinner than the plastic shotshell as well.
So you have a bit more capacity dispite the shorter length of the 303 and 30-40 brass length.

Use punched out card wads for over powder, filler and over shot.
The over shot can be crimped in place by running the finished case into a reloading die that will lightly turn the top edge over.

Most simply glue the wad in place. White glue works for rounds handeled carefully. You can smear a dab of cheap window&door caulking around the top and let it cure for a day. That worked perfect for me when I was making shot loads for a .500 x 3" BPE rifle.

No real need to size and resize the brass for use in a single shot. Just punch out the primer and reseat a new one again. Then load the components.

Here's a couple articles about it. There are plenty others on the net.

\.444 Marlin cases to .410 shotgun

Ed Harris: How to Make and Load All-Brass .410 Shotshells. – www.GrantCunningham.com

The 9.3x74R brass is $$ as a rule but sometimes once fired stuff comes up for sale.

30-40Krag seems to be a ghost lately but it's out there..

Any brass will be more money than once fired 410 hulls, but handled carefully, there are pretty much everlasting hulls in 410.

20 or 30 cases would seem to be enough to satisfy the urge to reload by these methods!,,it is a bit labor intensive
,,,and be enough to stroll around the woods and fields and enjoy shooting the old breakopen and not feel the pinch of OTC 410 shell prices.

Sounds like it works fine, but if the OP only wants a few shells it seems that .45 Colt shot shells would fill the bill, although they are more expensive than .410 shells. Would plastic .410 shot cups work in .303 or 30-40 brass instead of fiddling with gluing in wads? I admit I'm fascinated by the prospect of .303 Brit brass working in a .410. I think I'll try it for an old Stevens single shot I keep for utility use even though I have tons of conventional .410 shells.

 

[Nevada Ed]

IF;

I would have had more money and an understanding wife,

I would have had two more o/u shotguns in my collection.

One would have been a .410 and the other the 28 Ga.

Shot them at the trap club, but I could only dream of owning one,
with keeping the family and children, feed, warm and happy.

I had to be happy with my hand me down Winchester, .410, pump, shotgun, to do the jobs at hand.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

Wow there is some great info in this thread. Thank you for all the help. Sending PM's to those who offered hulls. The brass case idea has the highest cool factor but I think plastic hulls make the most sense for clay shooting when the hulls are likely to get stepped on or lost. I could definitely see brass for hunting loads.

 

[SMSgt]

The only .410 I ever used was a little double, maybe a Stevens. It was, IMO, the sweetest little rabbit gun ever.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have an older 410 side by side shotgun and for a while I had a hard time finding ammo. I was luckily enough to fine 1,000 rounds in an auction before prices went nuts and got them very cheap. (mostly Winchester AA) Unfortunately I have no idea where to buy ammo or hulls these days, sorry I can't help you. (I have never reloaded any shotgun ammo)

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

Suppliers are telling me they haven't seen new AA's in 3 years.

I have shotshell dies for single stage presses in 12 and 20 gauges but they at in the 1 1/8" thread pattern. These are by C-H 4-D in Mount Vernon, Ohio. I can't hurt to call and see if they have 7/8-14 dies in 410. Mag-tec make all bras 410's in 2". Ballistic Products sells them and all the proper components.

I gave all my 3" 410's to a friend. My current AA 2.5" have about 8 loadings on them and about ready to be trashed (I use a 1280-1300 fps Sporting Clays load of WW296/H110 and burns them up fast) This batch started as 2000 new AA HS's and is down to about 900. I've been hording about 1500 for a fresh start, but am fearful of when I can find resupply.

I use to have a Lee Loader (Wack-a-Mole) in 410/2.5" I ran 50% failure rate, so I bought a MEC 600Jr in 2005 whin I bought a good O/U Browning, When I hit 5000 rounds a year I bought a MEC Grabber (non automatic progressive)

It's a little late to tell you this, You really should have a stockpile of two or three years' worth of powder, shot, wad, and primers. That's how all the shotgunners are still shooting (at least practicing). My brother and are a little more paranoid so we maintain about 5 years on shotgun and 3 years on rifle and pistol.

410 is the most expensive to buy new, and the least expensive to reload!

Ivan

 

[2152hq]

...... Would plastic .410 shot cups work in .303 or 30-40 brass instead of fiddling with gluing in wads? I admit I'm fascinated by the prospect of .303 Brit brass working in a .410. I think I'll try it for an old Stevens single shot I keep for utility use even though I have tons of conventional .410 shells.

Yes conventional plastic 410 shot cup wads work fine in 303 or 30-40 brass used for .410.
You still need to 'glue' an over shot wad into place on top though.
Either that or lightly roll crimp the brass case mouth over onto a card overshot wad.
Some people use an inverted copper gas check as an overshot wad for more rugged handling. But roll crimped regular shotshells from the past used a plain rather thin card wad over the shot w/o any problems.

The use of a conventional 410 plastic shotshell wad inside the brass case makes it handy and quicker to load the rounds. The plastic petals protect the bore from leading. But the petals do take up some room from the shot load. Every little bit counts here.

Another thing it does do is they take up more precious room inside because of their extended colume height of the over-powder cup portion as compared to a couple punched out card wads from say cereal box cardboard.
You have to experiment a bit and see which works the best and allows you the shot payload you are seeking to use w/ the particular brass case and powder .

You can usually fit the standard 1/2oz shot load in there OK.

 

[scooter123]

It really Irks me when people say the 410 is a poor choice for a youngster. IMO the reason for this claim is FEAR, as in some older shooter is afraid that he might be humiliated by a 10 year old who has a habit of shooting straights. Yeah, it's a bit harder to hit with the 410, because you have to place that wee little shot string with precision. However if you start a 6 year old out with a light weight 410 he won't grow a fear of recoil and he'll learn to shoot with precision. Once that kid is about 5 feet tall he'll start out shooting his elders routinely.

BTW, I'm 67 years old and started shooting Skeet August of 2020. Got hooked good and hard and now do 4 gun Skeet Competitions. Found out at my first registered that I'm too old to shoot with tubes so I have a 12, 20, and a 28/410 2 barrel gun set. I've fallen in love with the 28/410 combo, it's a perfect fit and just plain FUN to shoot.

For reloading I have MEC single stage presses for 12 and 20 gauges and for the 28 and 410 I have MEC 9000-G progressive presses. about 70% of my practice now is with the 410, in part because it's the least expensive to reload. Cost per box at current component costs is 6.26 USD. BTW, 1 ounce 12 gauge runs 8.38 per box.

Now for Components. Ballistic Products is my goto for Primers and Hulls. Was a time when if you wanted primers you had to check their site 2 times a day and purchase a case the instant it showed up. Now they have enough primers on hand that the limit is now 20,000 per month and the cost with shipping and Hazmat is roughly about 80 dollars per thousand. As for 410 hulls, they have been nearly unobtainum lately but at the end of October and early November they had Fiochi 2 1/2 inch 410 hulls available. Because of the split I was able to get the October Maximum of 500 and the November maximum of 500. So I added 1000 pre-primed hulls to my stash. That is the benefit of checking for stock daily. Bad news is Fiochi 410 hulls are about 3/32 inch shorter than Cheddites so I had to dial back the shot charge on my 9000-G from 219 grains to 205 grains. So it's a light charge but I've already found it's good enough to break targets with. For powder, wads, and shot I've been able to get them locally at my club. However powder is a bit spotty so when I see a powder I use I'll pick up an 8 pounder. BTW, if this seems extreme I've loaded over 10,000 rounds this year.

 

[GypsmJim]

I use to have a Lee Loader (Wack-a-Mole) in 410/2.5" I ran 50% failure rate,



Ivan

My .410 Lee Loader is a 3". What I learned early on is that you need to add a shot card to keep them together. Then it was easy peasy.

I never had one single round disappoint me. What do you mean by 50% failure rate? What failed?

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

My .410 Lee Loader is a 3". What I learned early on is that you need to add a shot card to keep them together. Then it was easy peasy.

I never had one single round disappoint me. What do you mean by 50% failure rate? What failed?

At the time I was loading Remington black ribbed 2.5" hauls with white shot cups. The cups wouldn't fill up with a 1/2 ounce of shot. So, when crimped, the crimp collapsed.

The thing is you can't tell if the loading data is wrong or one (or more) of the components is out of spec!

Got rid of the Lee Loader and haven't looked back.

Ivan
.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

I would have figured 3" would be the way to go for all loads but I see a lot of recommendations for 2.5". I see 2.75" listed but this seems less common. What's are your opinions? Looks like most of the brass shells will form out to less than 3" except for the 9.3's.

I bought 100 rounds Federal 3" #6 lead yesterday but I am thinking this is not ideal. I see people saying #7.5 or even #9 shot for hunting. I would think the #6 hits harder but it's the pattern that matters. My barrel is a full choke, which is what I hunted with as a kid. I can't remember what shells we used but I bet they were 2.5"s. I wonder if I could either chop the barrel a little to make it cylinder choke or rent a reamer and thread it for removable chokes.

I will say that I am getting excited about this project. You guys have me looking at 410 doubles now.

 

[Nevada Ed]

3" hulls are best for hunting, since they will hold more pellets of a larger size
that will give you more energy and penetration, plus range.

2.5" are all that is needed for target, trap or pest control.

#9 lead fills the pattern best, with 8.5 & #8's used for trap at the longer
distances at 30-40 yard shots.

You need to know where and how your shotgun shoots, so several rounds at a pattern board
is needed with #9 and #8's to see what patterns the best, even though you have to waste a few loads
it will pay big divedends in the end.

With H110 or 296 powder, you might get 7-9 loads out of a hull, depending on the fps that you use.
Some powders "Fry" the ends of the hulls after just 5-6 loads, so you
will need to learn what powders will work for your type of loads.

You have a big can of worms, that you just opened.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

You have a big can of worms, that you just opened.

But what beautiful worms they are!

Ivan

 

[Paul in Nevada]

I do have a bunch of H110/296 and Lil'Gun from pre-crisis so I have that base covered. Cheddite 209's available at the LGS but you know how that goes.

 

[2152hq]

The 303 and 30-40 brass fire forms out to less than 2 1/2" but the interior capacity is greater for it's length than a 410 shotshell hull.
303 is 2 1/4"
30-40 is just slightly longer by about 1/10" or so.

The rifle brass has thinner walls and the fact that the shotshell hulls have a thicker(higher) base wad inside than the rifle brass uses as an interior base.
So the rifle brass can easily load 1/2oz of shot. Especially if you use card wads.

If you are loading plastic 410 hulls of different mfg'rs (like I do!) and they leave different amt's of empty space above the shot load due to internal differences in capacity,,simply place a Cheerio or a few Rice Crispys kernals on top of the shot load and then crimp.
I do the same when loading 12ga for the same reason.

I used to use popped popcorn, but I find the cereal much easier to use and handle. Plus I don't eat the stuff while reloading like I was with the popcorn.
...and one Cheerio layed flat fits near perfectly on top of the shot column and inside a 410 hull.

The cereal adds no appreciable weight to the load. But will fill the odd and extra empty space for you and when crimped provides a nice cushion for the fold crimp.
They all come out very nice that way regardless of the depth of the empty space you are filling up.
The cereal compresses easily when the 'loader crimps the hull, so you can't really overcharge the hull with the filler. I usually fill the hull to the mouth and then pre-crimp,,then final crimp it.