4227 and .38-44

[spencerdiesel]

Hey all, this thread would not even be posted if I had .357 brass. Due to not being able to get anything anywhere related to things going bang, I’m asking if I can use what I have currently.
The powder in question will be loaded for a circa 2011 60-15. I have 5 lbs of IMR4227, 1000 SNS coated hardcast bullets, around 600 pcs of .38 brass, and 0 .357 brass.
I’ve read from multiple posts stating 4227 is best for higher pressure (way beyond .38 +p) and heavier pills. Being new to reloading, I welcome all advice and constructive criticism from you all.
I’m thinking a .38-44 level load is what I’ll be aiming for after starting lower, but what do y’all think? Thank you

 

[SAFireman]

...Being new to reloading, I welcome all advice and constructive criticism from you all.
I’m thinking a .38-44 level load is what I’ll be aiming for after starting lower, but what do y’all think? Thank you

Start low, use a chronograph, work up slowly, watch for over-pressure signs.

Imagine how hard it will be to procure another model 60 when you blow it up, or lose some fingers.

Be safe, find a local mentor if you can. Good luck.

 

[Peak53]

You don't mention your bullet weight and profile, which is important. The only loading manual I have at my current location is Lyman. It doesn't mention 4227 until you get into magnum range. Most all of those loads for a variety of bullets are far beyond pressure limits for a .38 Special of any variety. Even shooting in an N frame could present pressure problems for the shorter .38 case. The recoil might be "unpleasant" in a J frame.

Unless you can find a published load (not advice from the net) for your specific components, I believe this powder to be too slow. I suggest you either find some magnum brass or a more suitable powder. I love this powder in .44 mag, but it is a handful. It also appears to require magnum primers.

 

[SLT223]

Given my experience with 4227 in .357, I struggle to see how it will work in sub full magnum pressure environment. If you try it, I wouldn’t bother with more than a handful of test loads. Wear long sleeves, and safety glasses. My guess is the cylinder will lock up within the first six rounds from unburned powder packing in behind the ejector star.

 

[Tim357]

I have a chart from Handloader magazine I'll post here tmrw. It shows a couple 38/44 loads with 4227.

 

[cowboy4evr]

I have shot 4227 for years and I can tell you this . It really does best with a magnum primer , a real firm crimp . There are much better powders for what you are wanting to do . Will it work ? Yes ---- it will work , not the best but it will work . Good luck , Regards Paul

 

[Tim357]

I can't get the picture to transfer from my computer to this reply, but the loads came from an article by Mike Venturino. The loads he suggests are 11.0 and 12.0 gr IMR4227 under a 150-160 gr cast bullets, sized at .358, using CCI 550 SPM primers. Velocities were recorded as 970 - 1067 fps from 5 and 5.5" bbl

 

[cowboy4evr]

Tim357 , give it a try . I some time back read about a guy that was wanting to shoot 148 gr wadcutters . He either only had 4227 or someone gave him a bottle . Anyway he used , if I remember correctly 8.0 grs . It shot dirty , but he was very impressed with the accuracy . I am sure that what you read from Mike Ventorino is a safe load to use . It will probably shoot somewhat dirty but the accuracy should be great . Like Mike said , use a magnum primer to get more consistent ignition and more complete ignition . Shooting out of a longer barrel will help also . Lets us know how it works for you . Regards Paul

 

[TMan51]

Hey all, this thread would not even be posted if I had .357 brass.

You can get all the .357 brass you want at Starline, and it's been available all through Covid.

4227 is an OK powder in the .357. I gives up some velocity to W296/H110, but not much. It's very good for accuracy in my 77/357 scoped carbine.

 

[cowboy4evr]

Thinking back , I can remember shooting heavy cast bullets using 4227 in 38 special case . The bullet was supposed to weigh 195 grs . But when I weighed them they came in @ about 216 grs . I loaded them on top of 13.0 grs of 4227, using a spm primer and shot them out of a smith model 28 , 6.5" barrel with great accuracy , even out to longer distances , no wobbling and they shot much cleaner than I had expected . Regards Paul

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have used IMR4227 in my 686 6" with 38 special cases, just to see what would happen.

This powder is very slow in burn rate and reminds me of loading a 270 or 30-06
with the slow 4831 powder, which is a great powder for begining loaders, to keep them out of trouble.

In a 38 case with a 110gr JHP and a "Full" case of powder my revolver got 945 fps.
A 158gr lead bullet with the short 38 case maxed out at 888 fps, with 11.0c .

I had to stop shooting loads in my J frame snub nose, since the powder locked up the cylinder solid, to where I needed to get it home to dismantle it and clean it, to get it to work again.

Have fun.

PS;
it does work a lot better in a .357 case.

 

[boatbum101]

FWIW I shoot 12.5grs H4227 , LY 358429 ( 173grs my alloy ) , WSPM primer , Starline 38 spec +P cases . Not a load for majority of 38 specials unless like me you have an Outdoorsman N frame , 357 mag gun you're OK . Runs right around 1175fps from a 6 1/2" barrel . Now 14.5grs is max in a 357 case with same bullet & it's a 40K CUP load . So 12.5 in a 38 case would be solid 357 probably 30-35K CUP .

 

[spencerdiesel]

Wow thanks you all for the great info! I just checked Starline (thanks for the recommendation) and it shows .357 currently back ordered. I’ve been wanting heavier bullets but what I have is SNS 147 grn flat point (all they had available at the time) and Acme 148 grn DEWC.
I also have Win 231, but have gathered it’s a fantastic low to mid power powder in .38 and low low level .357. The mag primers are a great idea, I’m only able to use CCI 400 at the moment (also not conducive to 4227 and lower psi). What do you all think about setting the COL just long enough in .38 cases that they’ll only chamber in .357? Thanks!

 

[cowboy4evr]

Actually your CCI 400 would work fine . SRP's are about the same on heat as SPM . Sounds like you want to crimp outside the crimp groove . It can be done but needs a real tight crimp to hold them in place so you don't get " bullet jump " . The bullet moving forward out of the case , extending out the front of the cylinder tying up the cylinder because of recoil . Be sure and use a roll crimp and a tight one . I have done it w/o any problems , when done right . Regards Paul

 

[Nevada Ed]

W231 is not that bad in the .357 revolver.

With a 125 JHP, it will push that weight at 1,200 fps or more
out of a 6" barrel.

That works out to 399.78 ft/lbs of muzzle energy.

 

[spencerdiesel]

That’s what I’m hoping to do regarding crimping, the SNS 147 flat points have no crimp grooves. Great to hear about the primers! I read a thread where someone talked with a long standing CCI employee that was told there’s no difference between their spp and srp.
Do the 125 grn pills work better with 231 in .357 because it’s such a fast powder, the whole smack vs shove? I love heavy bullets, but I can’t be choosy now.
I have an RCBS .38/.357 3 die set I’m starting out with, do I have to use the seating/crimp die as for both simultaneously or can I roll crimp separately (what I’d like to do)? Thanks!

 

[Nevada Ed]

W231 and BE-86 are very close in FPS and accuracy in my 686 6" revolver.
I would almost say it is the same powder, since they are so close in FPS and accuracy.

I can't find my w231 picture but this one of BE-86 with the 6" barrel off of sand bags on one of my chrony test, gives you an idea if this powder works in a .357 case.

 

[spencerdiesel]

Thanks you all! I’m going to start with max book .38 +p loads (the gun is .357) with heavy crimp to see how dirty the 4227 is. I’ll slowly work up from there with some of the reccomended charge weights y’all have mentioned and watch for pressure signs.
I’ll also do a similar smaller scale test with 231 (only have 1 pound) and work up.
What are your opinions of 173-200 grn bullets in a .38 case with heavy crimp and heavy 4227 charges? Thanks again!

 

[spencerdiesel]

Just loaded 15 rds to test. .38 brass, COL 1.59” (mag length), 158 gr lswchp, CCI srp, 11 grns 4227. It’s a less than ideal combination with non mag primers and a 3” bbl, but tommorrow I’m hoping to run them in the 60-15 and get a baseline.
Based on this info do you feel this is an ok place to start in a .357? Thanks

 

[spencerdiesel]

Tested 15 rds of each of the following today: 12, 12.5, 13, and 13.5 grn 4227. All with Hornady 158 gr LSWCHP. The 12.5 grn shot the most “predictable/ ideal grouping. Currently I have no chrono, so I don’t have vel unfortunately.
I’m of course new to hand loading, so I don’t have a good reference for leading/ dirty burning. In total 60 rds were fired (all hornady lswchp & 4227) and I noted some streaking in the rifling. There weren’t any issues with shell extraction or binding, but there were kernels in the barrel after all loading (less at higher charges). Accuracy was what I consider ok for an amateur like me. 2.5” -3” 5 shot groups at 15 yards standing. I was able to put 4 of 5 rounds on a 12” x 16” box at 80 yards standing. Of course there’s operator error in this. Any educated guesses on velocity of 12.5 gr 4227 under 158 gr soft lead out of a 3” model 60? 850-900 maybe? Thanks!