.44 American update

[new2S&W]

It's been awhile since I posted here about the progress made on my original US marked first model American.
As a reminder this pistol first became known to me in 1967 when my dad brought it from Saskatchewan Canada following the death of his father. We had no idea what it was or where my grandfather may have acquired it. Being a devout Christian who did not believe in weapons or violence of any kind, my dad figured he had probably taken it as barter from one of his tenants who rented one of his houses in the city. I'm told my grandfather was sympathetic to the plight of First Nation members and, as such he offered his houses at reasonable rental rates.
It is conceivable that the gun had come into the possession of an "Indian" who had fled the LBH area with Chief Sitting Bull following the battle.

The recent event that raises my hopes to pursue the possibility that this gun may have been at LBH, either in possession of a soldier or Lakota warrier, is that I have recently found some rare .44 American black powder cartridges that are coming my way
I plan to record the test firing of the gun and recovery of the bullets and spent cartridges to allow comparison with those found at the battle site. Up to 3 separate .44 American guns were determined to be fired at the battle.

More later as it becomes available.

 

[iby]

I don't recall your previous post but that is a nice gun

 

[glowe]

Way too nice to have been owned by the Indians. I have never seen a pristine or even close gun that had proven provenance that was not used up to an inch from total destruction. Guns were tools to the Native Americans, so were used and carried under the worst conditions for their entire service life. Many also had tacks placed on the stocks to increase stature in their community. An example below:

This Canadian Blackfoot brave has tacked up about everything he owns, including his 1873 Winchester carbine, his knife scabbard, riding quirt, waist belt and the collar around his neck—even his pony’s headstall. Interestingly, he’s also employed brass serpentine side locks from old trade guns, to fashion his unique breastplate. True West archives.

 

[BMur]

LBH

I agree.
Authentic LBH pieces are mostly in relic condition or very heavily used.

I’m wondering if the OP has a factory letter? If so can you please post it?

Also, matching ballistics from a recovered 130 year old lead bullet to a 130 year old antique gun would be very subjective. I’ve seen many recovered rounds from the LBH and they are heavily soiled, deformed badly and in overall poor condition.

I’ve also read claims that bullets were matched to Springfield rifles/carbines. That to me is hard to believe looking at recovered heavily damaged 45/70 bullets as seen in photo 1.

It would be difficult to prove even today if it happened yesterday with 700 people firing the same caliber and model gun at say a rifle range? Pulling bullets from the mound of dirt and matching them to each gun fired? Sorry, I’d bet against that being proven.

I have recovered Schofield shot rounds from a Military fort in New Mexico and there is no way you could positively assign any of them to one specific gun. Who knows when they were shot?

You could likely prove the rifling is from a Colt SAA or a Schofield but that’s about it. Even that could be argued. Since the rifling and rounds were common in black powder pistols from other manufacturers and later models.

When they use modern forensics to prove a bullet was fired from a specific gun they are looking at very detailed lines from machining the bore. Those matching lines are long gone from the 130 year old relics.

Photo 2 is a LBH recovered 45/70. Look at the condition of that bullet.

Murphy

 

[new2S&W]

Here's the letter as requested.

 

[BMur]

Frankford Arsenal Rounds

Thanks for posting.

Here is more info on the Frankford Arsenal rounds issued at that time.

You will notice that the primary round used at that time for both the 44 cal pistol that included the Colt, Remington, and Smith & Wesson American was Bennett primed cases. That also included the 45/70 Springfield carbines. Those would be the “authentic” rounds used during the battle.

See photos

I looked up your last post in 2015 and you stated multiple 44 S&W cases were found Berdan primed.

There were several 44’s at the LBH. One in particular was the 44 Henry Rimfire. Which honestly is literally identical in bullet specs to the 44 American. Also even early Colt 44’s had wide lands and grooves. Even early 44 WCF Colts did. I have studied early 44 rimfire pistols from various manufacturers and the rifling is near identical on the early guns.


I would recommend you focus more on the U.S. 44 American Army issue research. Find as much as you can about proven guns at the LBH. Also Reference as much military records during the trials. Those records often mention which Cavalry unit was assigned to field test the weapon and how many they were issued. I have read some of those reports during my Schofield research. They don’t mention serial numbers but it would be a huge step in right direction to find a number issued before the LBH?

Murph

 

[Aussie Collector]

I agree with Murph follow the military route.
My thoughts are...
how old was your grandfather when he passed?
When did he start renting out houses?
LBH being 1876 and the finding of the gun in 1967 91 years later.
What is the likely hood of a fleeing indian having possession of the gun many years after LBH. I would think it conceivable your grand father came into possession many years after the battle. At the earliest when he was in his 20s.

 

[new2S&W]

I have sought information from Springfield Research Service but they have no information beyond that it was shipped from S&W to the Springfield Armory which I already knew from the Jinks letter. Apparently any records by serial number to any particular Army unit no longer exists. This is also confirmed from serial number info listed in Pate's book. All I have is the listing of serial numbers that MAY have been shipped in the same crate.
Also shown is a single WRA .44 American cartridge I got from a fellow American collector.

 

[new2S&W]

My grandfather was born in 1885 and died in 1967 at age 82. From what I understand he started renting houses in the late 1920's until his death.

 

[iby]

NEW2S&W
I would be delighted to see a couple more pictures of your gun

 

[BMur]

Research

Your information so far is redundant. Different sources with the same answer.
After many years researching I spend zero time on brick walls. I go around them.
The photos I posted are another Avenue or option to research further, beyond the brick wall.
Looking through the Military records you will see a much bigger picture of what was going on at that time during the trials.
I suggest that you first establish a solid foundation by simply proving that the Military was actually using the 44 American in 1876?
How do we prove that?
Well, one way is to find a Frankford Arsenal box of ammo that is actually dated 1876 or later. That’s rock solid proof that the gun was still in service.
The records show early shipments in low numbers in April, 1871. The first significant shipment of ammo was not until early 1872 in the 44 cf Smith and Wesson cartridge. So based on my SAA and Schofield research the 44 American was not issued in significant numbers until mid-1872. No ammo, no guns. They were still being tested prior to that date.

So You need to find a box of Frankford Arsenal ammo dated 1876 or later. Until you find that box you’re standing in mudd! No ammo no LBH!

Murph

 

[new2S&W]

More photos

 

[BMur]

Other research

I’m always going off on tangents so I’m getting back to my other projects but one last input.
The 44 American was discontinued in 1874. Production ceased. The military was always well aware of the production status of firearms in their possession. When a model is discontinued by the manufacturer it’s on its way out of the Military almost immediately.

When the Schofield was discontinued it didn’t take the Military long to down size on that model in large numbers.

Since only 1000 Americans were purchased in 1871 I’d say not many were left in service by June of 1876.
I’ve also read many military correspondence letters from officers in charge of supplying guns to any given command, including ships stationed overseas, mentioning government sales prior to receiving another model pistol from the Ordnance department.


Murph

 

[new2S&W]

According to Pate's book, it is more likely that Americans were in use by the Indian warriers. And of the cartridges recovered in the 1980's, it was determined they were found in what is thought to be Indian-held locations. This gun at some point had lost a portion of the left side stock. It also showed signs of a bent frame,suggesting it may have been used as more of a crude tool if ammunition was not available.
Keeping an open mind until proven otherwise.

 

[mrcvs]

According to Pate's book, it is more likely that Americans were in use by the Indian warriers. And of the cartridges recovered in the 1980's, it was determined they were found in what is thought to be Indian-held locations. This gun at some point had lost a portion of the left side stock. It also showed signs of a bent frame,suggesting it may have been used as more of a crude tool if ammunition was not available.
Keeping an open mind until proven otherwise.

I agree with others, that despite some damage to this revolver on the left stock and a bent frame, the amount of bluing present makes it unlikely to have been an Indian revolver. Indian revolvers are tough, and often adorned with tacks.

Admittedly, it’s sometimes difficult to let go of an idea when it could add value and a good story to this revolver’s provenance.

It’s attractive in that it is serial number 1030, with the “oil hole”.

 

[iby]

Thank you for the extra pictures.
I like the guns and usually ignore the stories