44 american

[wormey]

New member here and I need some help please. I am the proud owner of a S&W model 3 1st issue in 44 American caliber. All the internals are mint except for the cylinder stop. The body of the stop is there, but the arm is broken off. Can anyone recommend someone capable of repairing this part or for that matter supply a new (old) cylinder stop. Mine is the early style that bears on the hammer and not on the trigger. I am somewhat handy and could possibly do this myself if I had one to copy. I don`t have a scale drawing of the part and do not know how long the "leg" should be nor the shape of the "tail". Suggestions would be appreciated as I want to shoot this gun. Black powder only, mind you. Mine is serial numbered 21__. I have a S&W letter stating it was shipped in March of 1872 to a dealer in N.Y.C. (and then on to Wyatt Earp I`m sure)!!!!Thanks, Wormey

 

[glowe]

These are great old west guns and you deserve to be proud to own one, since only around 8000 were made. Since you are aware that the gun is going on 150 years old, parts are almost impossible to find. You have, however found the best site to ask about parts, since the most knowledgeable collectors around are active members.

I would try a post in the WTB section and ask for a cylinder stop for your 1st Model. http://smith-wessonforum.com/wanted-buy/

These guns really deserve to be brought back to working order if possible, but I know of no one who makes replacement parts. Any qualified tool and die maker can do such a project, but would need a pattern to copy. Is there enough of your part left that a new one could be fashioned from it? Finding a gunsmith that would be able to do this job will be like finding a needle in a haystack, so finding an original part to have a machinist copy is your best bet. Maybe it is time to start looking for another Model 3, 1st, so you will have a pair?

 

[wormey]

Thanks Gary. The cylinder stop I have is fine except for the missing arm. If I had an original to copy or at least a tracing of an original I could repair mine or craft a new one. If someone would be so kind as to send me a tracing I would be much obliged!

 

[sw44russ]

The problem of making new parts is that you only get a vague idea at best of the dimensions of the original part. Invariably, there is a piece broken off or worn off so you either have to make the new part too long (for example) and gradually remove more metal until it works or you have one to copy that is at original specs or at least close to it.

I have the same issue with an Ejector Cam for a New Model No.3. A crucial tooth broken off which also retains another component which consequently has fallen out and is missing completely. My search for a replacement part was fruitless and they made a lot more New Models than 1st Issue Americans so be prepared for a big fat zilch when searching for internal components that could and did break on other examples of your Model also. Having said that, sure, its worth a try in the Wanted section here.

I'd say your best bet is going to be a find an obliging soul who is willing to take the good Cylinder Stop out of his American and photograph it on std Graph Paper and do some precise measurements of it for you.
Armed with that, a good Machinist or for that matter, any Gunsmith who actually is a Gunsmith should be able to make and fit the new part properly.

Anytime any of us takes a Gun apart; we should do this with every component so we end up with a Bank of Scale Images as a Reference for when these problems come up. Sears, Hammers, Arms, Hands, Ejectors, Pawls, are all parts that are subject to breakage, especially on Guns that are coming up to 150 years old.

How valuable would a 'Database' of Tech Drawings or Scale Photographs on Graph Paper of all the Breakable parts for all the Top Breaks be?

The new 3D Scanning machines also come to mind. One of those would undoubtedly be able to make at least a 1:1 Scale 3D Facsimile of any Part also. An ideal reference for your Machinist.

 

[wormey]

If I had a scale drawing or at a minimum a tracing of an original or perhaps even a photograph and some measurements I could repair the one I have or even craft a new part. I am capable of doing that and also am familiar with heat treating and so forth. I hope some good hearted soul makes such an offer. Wormey

 

[sw44russ]

If you don't have any luck Wormey and you have enough of the old part left; you could try making one and make the Arm on the long side.

Estimate how long it needs to be; the Stop in the Cylinder will give you the right shape; then gradually remove length until the part is doing what it should....

 

[SchofieldKid]

Wormey-- Last week I had my 1st Mod. American apart, but didn't remove the 2 frame pins that hold the cyl. stop-trigger. In my post 'My Ugly American' there are a couple of photos on the bottom of page 1 that might help you, one of the top part of the stop and the corresponding "bump" on the hammer that contacts it. Not much help but better than nothing. The pistol is back to 1 piece now and in the safe again. Was just verifying what parts were in the gun and I didn't feel comfortable driving the pins out so I didn't. I will say that the upper part of the cyl. stop looked fragile to me, but after 146 years it's still in one piece. Good luck in finding one, I still need a trigger spring for mine, s/n 1824.

 

[wormey]

Thanks, I had missed that photo. It is indeed helpful in that by comparing the arm to the cutout in the frame I can get a pretty good idea as to the length and the picture also gives a good look at the shape of the hook. I`ll continue my quest, but in the meantime I`ll get busy trying to repair and reshape mine. By the way, if you need one, I`ll make you a triggerspring. Just give me a little time, I`m getting old (72). I move slower now.

 

[Brian in SLC]

I took my 1st model American apart for the joint pivot part discussion, but, reassembly was easy and went well.

I have a need to get a correct length pin for mine for both the trigger and cylinder stop (or, just cut down the existing pins as they appear to be replacements and are a bit long).

Should I take this on in the short term, and, dig into the guts a bit more, I'll be sure to take a photo on graph paper and do some measurements.

Looks like if you popped the side plate off, you could kinda get a rough idear of the length and shape of the part?

It doesn't look "too" hard to pull the trigger guard and drift out the pin holding the cylinder stop...

Anyone know the watch outs?

If you're a spring maker...I need a barrel catch spring for my 1st model American. I'd be very motivated to pull my pistol apart if "someone" could make me a spring...(ha ha!). Was thinking about getting a barrel block spring and plunger for a Uberti (replacement part) and trying to fit those but they wouldn't be correct, per se.

Thoughts?

 

[wormey]

Thanks for your post. When you say "1st model", are you talking about what I have? That is the 3rd model, 1st issue. If you are and that is what you need the spring for, since I have one to use as a pattern, I would be happy to make you a spring in exchange for a tracing, drawing, measurements, etc. for your cylinder stop. If it is for a different model, I don`t have a pattern to copy so I don`t know exactly what you need. Wormey

 

[SchofieldKid]

Does anyone know if there are any online or other sources for 1st & 2nd model Americans parts drawings with dimensions? We could start a resource here I suppose, but why re-invent the wheel if it already exists? A quick check today online turned up nothing but a reference to David Chicones Book on gunsmithing.
I'll keep looking but so far, nothing.

 

[H Richard]

You could check with Jack First in Rapid City SD. They manufacture parts, and have their own catalog, which they sell.

 

[Brian in SLC]

Thanks for your post. When you say "1st model", are you talking about what I have? That is the 3rd model, 1st issue. If you are and that is what you need the spring for, since I have one to use as a pattern, I would be happy to make you a spring in exchange for a tracing, drawing, measurements, etc. for your cylinder stop. If it is for a different model, I don`t have a pattern to copy so I don`t know exactly what you need. Wormey

Yep, 3rd Model, first issue American. Serial number in the 2400 range (no oil hole).

I got inspired and removed the trigger guard (springs look ok, thank goodness!). I have a punch that's .090" or so, but, too big to drive the pin completely through so I ordered a set of cupped punches from Brownells. According to the Chicoine book, the pins for the trigger and cylinder stop are .081" so I'll have the right tool for the job, hopefully soon.

As soon as the punch arrives, I'll take 'er apart.

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers!

 

[model3sw]

New member here and I need some help please. I am the proud owner of a S&W model 3 1st issue in 44 American caliber. All the internals are mint except for the cylinder stop. The body of the stop is there, but the arm is broken off. Can anyone recommend someone capable of repairing this part or for that matter supply a new (old) cylinder stop. Mine is the early style that bears on the hammer and not on the trigger. I am somewhat handy and could possibly do this myself if I had one to copy. I don`t have a scale drawing of the part and do not know how long the "leg" should be nor the shape of the "tail". Suggestions would be appreciated as I want to shoot this gun. Black powder only, mind you. Mine is serial numbered 21__. I have a S&W letter stating it was shipped in March of 1872 to a dealer in N.Y.C. (and then on to Wyatt Earp I`m sure)!!!!Thanks, Wormey

Welcome, Womey.

Let me take a long shot guess. Shipped to M.W. Robinson in NYC ? LOL.

If you post a few pix we can better help you. Many times what you "think" is wrong may only be part of it, or, something completely different. Beside that we charge a tariff of $1.00 payable by the originator of the thread, to every member of the Antique section, if that originator of the thread does not include pictures. I'll let you slide on my $1.00 but you have it out with the other 500 guys here ... LOL !

Please post sharp focused, properly lighted pictures of both sizes (full length) of the revolver with the hammer down as if just fired (all the way down, not on the 1st notch to open it).

Next pix of the face of the cylinder and flash plate (close ups).

Things that usually mean trouble on Model 3s, across the board.

1. boogered screws and a poor side plate fit.
2. Loose at hinge / clasp when locked up (worn)
3. Poorly stored, rusted, improperly refinished or improper Rube Goldberg type repairs.

More times than not, these are found after being home-gunsmithed (a nice way to say hacked) wherein crude measures were undertaken to attempt a repair.

I posted a few pages with diagrams of the 1st type and revised American nammer (before and to the 2nd model American) in another thread, UGLY AMERICAN , post # 43 see: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/497010-my-ugly-american.html

At one time the American was the cutting edge of technology. Within 20 years the .44 American caliber lost favor to the better .33 Russian (later named .44 S&W) but .44 A ammo could still be had up to and around WWI, perhaps a bit later but not past WWII.

These Americans had a long service life. They were kept and used until they couldn't be repaired any more. Very, VERY few were cherished as they had just become old junk. Those that have survived in mechanically sound condition are a treasure, I feel. Very few, especially after the time the .44 Russian ruled, the Americans were basically discarded. It was the collecting interest of returning veterans that sparked a major boom on gun collecting as we know it in post WWII America. Add to that the glut of surplus WWI and WWII firearms, it was a sport and hobby the the average man with middle income could afford.

Some of the sorry and sad killers of the Model 3s are, refiled hammer / sear (sear is on the back end of trigger on this modes). From new and in use, if the hammer / sear starts to slip off, it can me carefully "stoned" to resharpen it ... ONCE ! ... and ONLY ONCE, by someone who knew exactly what he was doing, after which it needs a new hammer (best if with matched trigger (sear) which are no longer available.

I have a Transition American SN 73xx that was refurbished by S&W in 1926 to which S&W fitted a New Model 3 latch (numbered correctly to the gun) instead of the exact circular shape type (with checkered round ends), American latch. I suppose it was the correct "revised" edition of the part as it is likely none of the American latches remained. The Transition is just gorgeous and correct in so much it was refurbished by S&W but it does not have "the" correct year production latch. The point of this is (the moral of the story) that as far back as the 1920s there were little / no remaining parts for the Americans as it seems very few were in demand to be repaired because of the 55 years of technology that had occurred since these were introduced in 1870.

A worn. or worse .... a filed hammer (at the sear engagement) will cause all sorts of problems. It seems the center of all the mechanics on a Model 3 is the hammer.

Next would be a worn or chipped hand, which is not too bad to have one made but it would be the years of being manipulted or used with the chipped hand that it now scars up the rotator gear in the center of the cylinder attached to and part of the extractor.

See what you can do with the pix that we can all take a look to decide what's really wrong with your M3 American.

Model 3s (to me and many others) are one of the finest revolvers S&W ever made, in my opinion, for the time they were produced. So popular and accurate that once production of the New Model #3 ended in 1898, guns were special ordered and shipped well into and likely past 1912.

Good luck.

 

[model3sw]

You could check with Jack First in Rapid City SD. They manufacture parts, and have their own catalog, which they sell.

Jack First manufactures S&W Model 3 American ( or any Model 3) parts ?

 

[glowe]

Somewhere back in time, the company had to have detailed drawings of every part for every model. I wonder if any have ever been discovered??

 

[wormey]

Thanks for the last post. All the internals on mine are just fine and not tinkered with including the hammer notches and the hand(pawl). The "hook" is broken off the arm of the cylinder stop and that is what I am attempting to repair. I`ll keep you posted on my efforts to craft a replacement. All the original finish on mine is gone, but the metal is in good shape and is relatively smooth. The grips are original to the gun and the bore is mint....bright and shiney! I have a later model 3 in double action 44/40 caliber that functions perfectly. I will get this gun up and running as it should and will be happy to post pics when I can get my wife to use her I phone to take the photos. I am not sufficiently up to date technologically to do so. By the way, even though the finish on mine is gone, it has not been polished or buffed.......all markings are clear and the corners are sharp. It is the epitome of the cowboy gun and I am proud to own it. I have numerous others; colts, remingtons, an Adams, etc., but this one is by far my favorite.

 

[model3sw]

Somewhere back in time, the company had to have detailed drawings of every part for every model. I wonder if any have ever been discovered??

Call Indiana Jones for S&W Archaeology. We'll all go dig up the grounds at 2100 Roosevelt Ave. Odds are Dumpster Don beat us all to any scrap iron that was there since the 1960s.

Google Maps

 

[model3sw]

Does anyone know if there are any online or other sources for 1st & 2nd model Americans parts drawings with dimensions? We could start a resource here I suppose, but why re-invent the wheel if it already exists? A quick check today online turned up nothing but a reference to David Chicones Book on gunsmithing.
I'll keep looking but so far, nothing.

You have to start with Col Charlie Pate (USAF Retired) book on S&W Americans then you need to go dig through the old S&W Collectors News (Journal) for an article first written by Ray Double in about 1971, then a few revisions with Col. Pate. Ray Double did the most extensive research on Americans and Russians that I've ever found.

One of the prints of either all or part of that full article was in the S&WCA "Collectors News" publication of Fall 1986. Volume 20, Number 3.

I have this volume but it would be a big PITA to copy and scan it. Roy Double's article is 26 pages long. IIRC I also have an old photocopy of Roy Doubles 1971 article / works on the American.

Another article makes note of an article in the previous issue by Charles (Col) Pate on the Columbian Exposition 1893 in Chicago states "it is likely the .44 American played a smaill part in the army's display at the popular exhibit"

Also, first page is a tribute to Life Member / Charter member John Wilson of Pyote, Texas, and his dedication to the Club and his S&W Americans.

This is one that should be reprinted.

 

[SchofieldKid]

Thanks for all the info about this Sal, I do need to start with Col. Pate's book on the Americans. I looked at the list of SWCA journal records on here and some look very pertinent to this discussion. I really didn't think there would be any online resource of American dimensional drawings, but hey, once in a great while you can be pleasantly surprised at what does turn up. Thanks for your help, again.