.44 HE 3rd Model in .44-40 and a surprise 2nd Model

Eddie Southgate said:
.... I am curious why a second model .44 would have a lanyard ring ? I expect to see them on 1917's but I don't remember ever seeing one on a .44 special .
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A lot of 2nd Model .44's were built on leftover 1917 frames and may have been drilled for lanyard loops when the frames were originally machined. The serial number being offset indicates that the gun was originally built with the loop. 2nd Models with lanyard loops aren't really scarce. They show up occasionally....

Mark
 
wheelgun610 said:
Did you look at the inside of the extractor to see if it had a number stamped on it?
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I did, and didn't see anything.

When I checked it looked like the ejector rod had some brownish crud around it. Probably need to disassemble and clean, since I'm in rust territory (FL). Any way to tell if it is a LH or RH thread? Given it is likely a conversion and not original, how can I tell before cranking on it? Since the rod looks like my .38/44 should I assume RH?

Neat history on this one. I'm anxious to shoot it now that I'm not worried it is a unicorn.
 
wheelgun610 said:
A lot of 2nd Model .44's were built on leftover 1917 frames and may have been drilled for lanyard loops when the frames were originally machined. The serial number being offset indicates that the gun was originally built with the loop. 2nd Models with lanyard loops aren't really scarce. They show up occasionally....

Mark
Click to expand...

I have a 2nd model 5" .44 Special that has the lanyard loop. When I bought it, the hole had been plugged, but I removed the plug and re-installed a loop.
 
ToddG said:
I did, and didn't see anything.

When I checked it looked like the ejector rod had some brownish crud around it. Probably need to disassemble and clean, since I'm in rust territory (FL). Any way to tell if it is a LH or RH thread? Given it is likely a conversion and not original, how can I tell before cranking on it? Since the rod looks like my .38/44 should I assume RH?

Neat history on this one. I'm anxious to shoot it now that I'm not worried it is a unicorn.
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All extractor rods with the acorn knob have to be RH.

The 2nd model has the large logo on the side plate which is after 1935.
 
Kinman said:
The 44-40 is way cool, since my book doesn't show any 3rd models made in 44-40 I wonder if it doesn't have a 1st model barrel and cylinder...great piece. I just started messing around with a reproduction Colt Bisley in 44-40, its a neat cartridge although it has its share of foibles concerning loading about anything other than 200gr. bullets sized to .427, at least in my limited experience.
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Yep, a Naval Aviator/Dr. buddy of mine once sent home a Westchester 1873 Musket with a 30" barrel home for a little R&R with me,, supposedly an ex Indian Gun in 44/40..

Gun was very presentable, and after a good cleaning and checking, the barrel was good, so my son and I proceeded to clean out a full box of old 44/40,, it was "VERY ACCURATE"!

love the caliber,, but you need an old Colt in a cross draw holster rig to go with it!
 
ToddG said:
Can the markings on the side be sanded down or filled enough to re-mark the caliber? If so it makes more sense.

Heck, now that I know it's a shooter I may get a .44-40 lever gun, chaps, a fancy nickname, and join SASS! In my "spare" time. :D
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I've seen some very creative stuff done with a technique referred to as "spray" welding. The way I saw it done was to build up a worn steel surface, then it could be turned back down to original specs, rather expensive but saved the original part on a rare automobile. I don't see why this technique could not be applied to firearm surfaces, even badly pitted surfaces could be brought back to factory spec. The trick is then restamping or etching the original marks, then again with the new laser stuff and an up front investment in equipment away ya go.
 
ToddG said:
I thought the S&WHF did the letters for S&W. What is the difference?

I sent in a membership to the Foundation a couple of weeks ago and haven't received anything back yet (expected it would take a while, so no surprise).

Is a Foundation request different from the regular LoA request? I've only lettered a .38/44 HD a few years ago.
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The SWHF NOW does the "factory"/"historical"/"confirmation" letters----previously ordered from the factory---call them as you may. I'm quite certain the records consulted to produce these letters are exactly the same as in the past. And as in the past, they are authored by Roy Jinks, now ably assisted by Don Mundell.

The SWHF material is an entirely different ballgame. The acquisition process goes like this: Once you have a letter, forward a copy of it along with your inquiry on the particular gun. My best recollection of the time span for which they have computer accessible records now stands at from 1920 to 1940----thereabouts---check with them to be certain. The content of the records varies from a little to a lot---as little as an invoice---as much as everything from the initial order through any and all correspondence related to the order and shipment. My inquiries have produced as little as nothing to as much as 9-10 pages of enormously interesting information on some guns.

The cost is next to nothing----literally nothing to do a search---and chump-change for copies of whatever they find---AND IT'S WORTH A DAMN SIGHT MORE!!

I recently sent in inquiries on 17 more guns. That's 17 separate searches---no charge.(??!!!) They found stuff on about half of them. What they found were orders and invoices where the shipping date timeline was right---but found nothing identifiable for a specific gun---specific by serial number. They sent copies of everything they found----no charge.(??!!!) I reckon there was no charge because there was nothing specifically identifiable for a specific gun. And while that was the case, the information they sent was still interesting---and worthwhile. The really bad news is they spent damn near $7 on postage to send it to me------their $7!!

I decided that was a bad deal---for them---and sent in $100. It strikes me as a good deal if more of us become members---and if we paid more for what we get.

Bottom Line: The more they have to do with, the more they can do with it.

Ralph Tremaine
 
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Well, a Hamilton Bowen conversion is a bit of a collectible, itself. :) But I'd shoot it.

Is the bore .427 or .429? One problem with accuracy in .44-40's is varying bore diameter with the manufacturers. Mike Venturino has written a bit about that, but likes the cartridge when all is as it should be. He favors Colt Frontier .44's.

I'm not sure why anyone would commission Bowen to make a .44-40 in modern times, when we know the .44 Special is a better revolver ctg. Maybe he had a Winchester .44 and it needed company?

I've long suspected that Sasha Siemel's S&W .44 may have been a .44-40, as he also owned a short Winchester M-92 carbine. He was famous for spearing jaguars, but also shot some.

A photo shows his holster looking as if he probably had a Second Model .44, either .44 Special or .44-40. He just called it a Smith & Wesson .44. BTW, his name doesn't look Portuguese because he emigrated to Brazil from Latvia, after Russia seized Latvia.

His book, "Tigrero" is wonderful to read, if you can locate a copy.

I'm guessing that .44 Special ammo may have been uncommon in Brazil in the 1917-1960's period when he was active. But the .44 Winchester was very popular, and Rossi makes copies of the M-92 even now.

If Ray in Rio sees this, maybe he'll know if .44 Special was ever common in Brazil. I don't think our other Brazilian members still post. ??
 
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rct269 said:
{SWHF research services info}
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Thanks for the info Ralph. Dunno if I'll pursue a letter on these given they are conversions/parts guns but good for future ref.

I sent in a membership form and check to the Foundation at the end of Dec. I have an older Pontiac and the Pontiac Historical Society (PHS) does something similar. Hosts the old records and does searches. Meritorious work and well worth supporting.
 
My 2nd Model .44 also has the lanyard ring. I was under the impression that that feature was standard on the 2nd models. This was my first Smith and Wesson, a gift way back in 1972 or '73. The finish is rough, but inside is pristine.

les-b-albums-some-of-my-n-frame-s-and-ws-picture16722-44-special-2nd-model-hand-ejector-shipped-july-1922-my-first-smith-wesson.jpeg


Anyway, to the OP....a couple of really interesting Smiths. Congratulations and thanks for sharing.

Best Regards, Les
 
Information for the OP regarding reloading your 44-40. I would shoot that piece without a question. I'm just starting to fool around with the cartridge as I mentioned in a previous post. Lazer Cast makes a .427, 200g RN FP bullet that works perfectly in my Colt Bisley repop, anything else requires a little extra effort like resizing after seating and crimping. I just pull the deprimer on the sizer die and run them back through. I believe it has to do with the slight taper at the case mouth, a heavier bullet with a larger diameter, like a 240gr. Keith SWC sized to .430 opens that case mouth up just a schosche, enough to inhibit easy loading. I did not want to have to push the rounds into the chamber, they should basically fall in on their own weight and when loaded and sized correctly they do just that. I find the cartridge to be quite accurate in my Bisley, shooting right to point of aim at 15yds and putting them all right in there.
 
merl67 said:
The grips on the 44 Special look like Catalin grips to me, but I am far from an expert.
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At first glance I thought so too, until I saw the grain of micarta; either paper or linen. I have a pair just like that. They started out a very light yellow and darkened quickly with age.
 
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