44 mag case sizing and bullet pull, Please help!

[3rdgenman]

I am developing a 44 magnum soft/moderate practice load for 2 S&W 629's. I am using once fired mixed brass, Xtreme plated 240 gr RNFP, Autocomp powder and Winchester primers. I have a decent roll crimp into the canulure but not breaking through the plating. Lee carbide dies and FCD, all adjusted perfectly IMHO.

While testing and chronoing my loads, ranging from 8 gr to 10 gr charges, I checked the last round of each cylinder for bullet pull. Pull was minimal with low charge weights and increased as the charge weights went up. At the 10 gr charge the last loaded round grew about .020 in. I was able to push the bullet back into the case by hand to the original length. This alarmed me. I know about bullet pull, that's why I was inspecting for it, but I did not expect it with a light loads like these. All my loads chronoed consistently and on-par with load data FYI.

I thought about more crimp but neck tension is also is on my mind. I think that my cases are not being sized enough to hold the bullet properly. My loaded rounds do not have any bottleneck appearance and all rounds chambered properly.

I am going to list the specs for my components and dies and see if it all sounds OK to everyone.

Bullet diameter: .429 to .4295 in
Sized case OD: .451
Sized case ID: .4285 to .4295 in
Loaded round OD (measured @ case/bullet interface): .4525 in
Resizing die ID: .450 in
FCD ID: .454 in

So I think that my sizing die is oversized. I plan on contacting Lee to ask them what their specs are for the sizing die.

What are other peoples sizing die and sized case dimensions? What's your take on this situation?

Thanks in advance for your help.
3rdgenman

 

[daniel lawecki]

One of the best thing I change was my .44 dies from RCBS to Hornady Dies. For neck tension they are one of the best dies I have tried Lee Dies were ones I tried as well but Hornady are my go to dies for the .44. My best groups with everything the same only die changes. have been with their dies. And no I'm not a salesman this is proven with my targets and group size and all my groups are shoot at 100 yards. Jim Miner a IHMSA shooter from another forum. And 44man was 100% right.

 

[dannyabear]

I think the mixed brass may be most of the problem, the wall thickness varies by mfg. Check several of the different headstamps after sizing.

 

[3rdgenman]

Those measurements I posted were taken from several brands of brass including Starline, Federal, PMC and Winchester.

 

[BC38]

...this is proven with my targets and group size and all my groups are shoot at 100 yards...

Grouping shots at 100 YARDS with a handgun?!?

Wow!

I'd feel like I was really having a good day to hit a man-sized target at 100 yards. Even from a rest with a 8-10 inch barrel and a scope.

I'm not doubting you, just saying you're a heck of a lot better shot than me if you can group handgun shots at 100 yards!

 

[Geo. T.]

For some reason!

It has been my experience that for some rason 44 magnum brass is all over the map as far as length and thickness goes. This is the only handgun brass that I trim 100 %.

I would suggest that you sort your brass by head stamp . Buy Redding dies and use your most consistent brass for your most important tasks . 44 mag brass is the shortest and thickest made by IMI and it will last a very long time .

Good luck !

 

[Handgun Hunter]

Grouping shots at 100 YARDS with a handgun?!?

Wow!

I'd feel like I was really having a good day to hit a man-sized target at 100 yards. Even from a rest with a 8-10 inch barrel and a scope.

I'm not doubting you, just saying you're a heck of a lot better shot than me if you can group handgun shots at 100 yards!

S&W .44 mag revolvers are plenty accurate at 100 yards. Using a scope and a rest, it's easy to shoot a gallon can to pieces at that range. Using a rest and factory sights is also easy with good daylight. Even shooting free-handed and standing is not difficult, but you'll miss a few, unless you're an above average shooter. But shooting a scoped M29/629 from a sandbag is easy for anyone who can squeeze a trigger properly. The sandbag does everything else for you once you have it sighted in. Just maintain a consistent grip between shots, aim, and squeeze. It is in fact easier to shoot at 100 yards from sandbags than it is to shoot from 25 yards free-handed, especially with a scope.

 

[Rule3]

You simply can not put a decent roll crimp on plated bullets, For revolvers I think they suck.

Get some lead bullets or better get some Hi Tec coated lead and put a proper roll crimp in the crimp groove.

 

[aurora40]

how easily do they seat? It does seem like neck tension should be enough.

 

[Handgun Hunter]

Plated bullets work fine for moderate velocities. I mostly use them for mild .357 loads but use them for .44 mag sometimes. If you're not going over 1200 ft/s and the revolver isn't one of the ultra light models and/or has a barrel less than 4", the bullets will stay put without too much crimp. A little experimentation on how much to crimp and you're okay. I've shot many thousands of Berry's and Rainier plated bullets with no problem with the bullets pulling on recoil. Velocities should be kept moderate, anyway, and that keeps recoil down, at least with heavier revolvers.

 

[3rdgenman]

You simply can not put a decent roll crimp on plated bullets, For revolvers I think they suck.

Get some lead bullets or better get some Hi Tec coated lead and put a proper roll crimp in the crimp groove.

So I need to throw out my 1000 Xtreme bullets that I have and get some lead or coated? I think I will make an attempt to work through the issue first. I was looking to buy some Missouri coated bullets but the Xtremes were cheaper, about $60 for 500. Missouri's were about $85 for 500 iirc.

The bullets seat pretty easily, maybe a little more pressure then seating a 45 acp bullet.

Would like to hear some other peoples die and case dimensions if someone has a chance to do some measuring.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I am going to list the specs for my components and dies and see if it all sounds OK to everyone.

Bullet diameter: .429 to .4295 in
Sized case OD: .451
Sized case ID: .4285 to .4295 in
Loaded round OD (measured @ case/bullet interface): .4525 in
Resizing die ID: .450 in
FCD ID: .454 in

What are other peoples sizing die and sized case dimensions? What's your take on this situation?

.

I load that same Xtreme 240gr RNFP in my 629-6 Classic 5" (44oz.) with 11.0gr of CFE-P (which is virtually the same recipe as Autocomp) & I've never noticed jump crimp with it, or any of my other moderate loads for it.

Being able to push the bullet back in by hand isn't a good sign.

My Lee sizing & FCD measurements are within .001" of yours. The expander die's diameter is what I'd be curious on. My Lee expander die is .428".

While I've used it alot I've mainly used my Lyman "M" expander die for the Xtreme bullets. Mainly I like it's longer expander plug & it's design, but it does have a slightly smaller minimum size diameter plug, .4265", too.

Plated bullets are pretty slippery so the more case-bullet tension the better. I do seat mine to the cannelure, however I use my Lyman taper crimp die to add a moderate crimp with.

.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I was looking to buy some Missouri coated bullets but the Xtremes were cheaper, about $60 for 500. Missouri's were about $85 for 500 iirc.

I tried MBC coated bullet in my 629 too & with moderate speed powders I got leading just past the forcing cone, but with slow powders they were okay. (Have had the same issue with their's in other calibers too: .41 & 500S&W) Since I prefer to use moderate powders for target loads I've gone to shooting Xtreme plated & use what I want. They might be fine in your gun & worth a try though. I've just been a little disappointed in MBC's coating quality.

.

 

[3rdgenman]

.

My Lee sizing & FCD measurements are within .001" of yours. The expander die's diameter is what I'd be curious on. My Lee expander die is .428".

.

The Flare/expander diameter doesn't really concern me because I only flare the very minimum possible amount to get a bullet started, no more.

When your round goes through the FCD does it work a bit at the bullet? I would say mine does for about 50% of the cartridges but just a very slight amount when it does.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I don't think I've used the L-FCD with the Xtreme 44 plated but I just inserted some loaded Xtreme rounds in it by hand & they go in freely. (Some of my FCDs seem to have a tighter opening than optimal & always give resistance though; 41Mag & 40S&W.)

Back to the expander, even though you're adjusting for minimal flare it's still expanding the case when you run it thru. The tighter (smaller diameter plug) the better. Then the bullets finishes expanding the case out.

.

 

[3rdgenman]

I see what you mean bluedot. I just measured my expander at .428 in also. On some sized cases it slips right in, on others it is a little bit snug. I could polish it down a little bit and it would not hurt anything. What are your bullets running size wise? I know there is a little variation with those Xtremes.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

The Xtreme 240gr RNFP average .4294" using a micrometer. Typically the base is the widest point.

.

 

[3rdgenman]

The Xtreme 240gr RNFP average .4294" using a micrometer. Typically the base is the widest point.

I'll buy that for a dollar! I don't have a mic but sounds about right after measuring around with my starrett digital calipers.

 

[scooter123]

Clarify something for me, what EXPANDER die are you using. My experience with Lee Handgun dies is that they all come with a powder through FLARING die that only flares the case edge. With RCBS dies it's a different story, they use a piloted flaring plug that with some calibers can expand the cases below the flare. IMO Handgun cases should be sized and flared only, any expansion after the sizing operation will only result in a reduction in the Neck tension.

 

[Rule3]

So I need to throw out my 1000 Xtreme bullets that I have and get some lead or coated? I think I will make an attempt to work through the issue first. I was looking to buy some Missouri coated bullets but the Xtremes were cheaper, about $60 for 500. Missouri's were about $85 for 500 iirc.

The bullets seat pretty easily, maybe a little more pressure then seating a 45 acp bullet.

Would like to hear some other peoples die and case dimensions if someone has a chance to do some measuring.

No, you would be better off to buy a taper crimp die for 44 caliber. Revolver dies are made to roll crimp. If you set them to a heavy crimp on a plated bullet you will break through the plating.