44 mag case sizing and bullet pull, Please help!

3rdgenman

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I am developing a 44 magnum soft/moderate practice load for 2 S&W 629's. I am using once fired mixed brass, Xtreme plated 240 gr RNFP, Autocomp powder and Winchester primers. I have a decent roll crimp into the canulure but not breaking through the plating. Lee carbide dies and FCD, all adjusted perfectly IMHO.

While testing and chronoing my loads, ranging from 8 gr to 10 gr charges, I checked the last round of each cylinder for bullet pull. Pull was minimal with low charge weights and increased as the charge weights went up. At the 10 gr charge the last loaded round grew about .020 in. I was able to push the bullet back into the case by hand to the original length. :eek: This alarmed me. I know about bullet pull, that's why I was inspecting for it, but I did not expect it with a light loads like these. All my loads chronoed consistently and on-par with load data FYI.

I thought about more crimp but neck tension is also is on my mind. I think that my cases are not being sized enough to hold the bullet properly. My loaded rounds do not have any bottleneck appearance and all rounds chambered properly.

I am going to list the specs for my components and dies and see if it all sounds OK to everyone.

Bullet diameter: .429 to .4295 in
Sized case OD: .451
Sized case ID: .4285 to .4295 in
Loaded round OD (measured @ case/bullet interface): .4525 in
Resizing die ID: .450 in
FCD ID: .454 in

So I think that my sizing die is oversized. I plan on contacting Lee to ask them what their specs are for the sizing die.

What are other peoples sizing die and sized case dimensions? What's your take on this situation?

Thanks in advance for your help. :)
3rdgenman
 
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One of the best thing I change was my .44 dies from RCBS to Hornady Dies. For neck tension they are one of the best dies I have tried Lee Dies were ones I tried as well but Hornady are my go to dies for the .44. My best groups with everything the same only die changes. have been with their dies. And no I'm not a salesman this is proven with my targets and group size and all my groups are shoot at 100 yards. Jim Miner a IHMSA shooter from another forum. And 44man was 100% right.
 
I think the mixed brass may be most of the problem, the wall thickness varies by mfg. Check several of the different headstamps after sizing.
 
Those measurements I posted were taken from several brands of brass including Starline, Federal, PMC and Winchester.
 
...this is proven with my targets and group size and all my groups are shoot at 100 yards...
Grouping shots at 100 YARDS with a handgun?!?

Wow!

I'd feel like I was really having a good day to hit a man-sized target at 100 yards. Even from a rest with a 8-10 inch barrel and a scope.

I'm not doubting you, just saying you're a heck of a lot better shot than me if you can group handgun shots at 100 yards!
 
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For some reason!

It has been my experience that for some rason 44 magnum brass is all over the map as far as length and thickness goes. This is the only handgun brass that I trim 100 %.

I would suggest that you sort your brass by head stamp . Buy Redding dies and use your most consistent brass for your most important tasks . 44 mag brass is the shortest and thickest made by IMI and it will last a very long time .

Good luck !
 
Grouping shots at 100 YARDS with a handgun?!?

Wow!

I'd feel like I was really having a good day to hit a man-sized target at 100 yards. Even from a rest with a 8-10 inch barrel and a scope.

I'm not doubting you, just saying you're a heck of a lot better shot than me if you can group handgun shots at 100 yards!

S&W .44 mag revolvers are plenty accurate at 100 yards. Using a scope and a rest, it's easy to shoot a gallon can to pieces at that range. Using a rest and factory sights is also easy with good daylight. Even shooting free-handed and standing is not difficult, but you'll miss a few, unless you're an above average shooter. But shooting a scoped M29/629 from a sandbag is easy for anyone who can squeeze a trigger properly. The sandbag does everything else for you once you have it sighted in. Just maintain a consistent grip between shots, aim, and squeeze. It is in fact easier to shoot at 100 yards from sandbags than it is to shoot from 25 yards free-handed, especially with a scope.
 
how easily do they seat? It does seem like neck tension should be enough.
 
Plated bullets work fine for moderate velocities. I mostly use them for mild .357 loads but use them for .44 mag sometimes. If you're not going over 1200 ft/s and the revolver isn't one of the ultra light models and/or has a barrel less than 4", the bullets will stay put without too much crimp. A little experimentation on how much to crimp and you're okay. I've shot many thousands of Berry's and Rainier plated bullets with no problem with the bullets pulling on recoil. Velocities should be kept moderate, anyway, and that keeps recoil down, at least with heavier revolvers.
 
You simply can not put a decent roll crimp on plated bullets, For revolvers I think they suck.

Get some lead bullets or better get some Hi Tec coated lead and put a proper roll crimp in the crimp groove.

So I need to throw out my 1000 Xtreme bullets that I have and get some lead or coated? I think I will make an attempt to work through the issue first. I was looking to buy some Missouri coated bullets but the Xtremes were cheaper, about $60 for 500. Missouri's were about $85 for 500 iirc.

The bullets seat pretty easily, maybe a little more pressure then seating a 45 acp bullet.

Would like to hear some other peoples die and case dimensions if someone has a chance to do some measuring. :)
 
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I am going to list the specs for my components and dies and see if it all sounds OK to everyone.

Bullet diameter: .429 to .4295 in
Sized case OD: .451
Sized case ID: .4285 to .4295 in
Loaded round OD (measured @ case/bullet interface): .4525 in
Resizing die ID: .450 in
FCD ID: .454 in

What are other peoples sizing die and sized case dimensions? What's your take on this situation?
.

I load that same Xtreme 240gr RNFP in my 629-6 Classic 5" (44oz.) with 11.0gr of CFE-P (which is virtually the same recipe as Autocomp) & I've never noticed jump crimp with it, or any of my other moderate loads for it.

Being able to push the bullet back in by hand isn't a good sign.

My Lee sizing & FCD measurements are within .001" of yours. The expander die's diameter is what I'd be curious on. My Lee expander die is .428".

While I've used it alot I've mainly used my Lyman "M" expander die for the Xtreme bullets. Mainly I like it's longer expander plug & it's design, but it does have a slightly smaller minimum size diameter plug, .4265", too.

Plated bullets are pretty slippery so the more case-bullet tension the better. I do seat mine to the cannelure, however I use my Lyman taper crimp die to add a moderate crimp with.

.
 
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I was looking to buy some Missouri coated bullets but the Xtremes were cheaper, about $60 for 500. Missouri's were about $85 for 500 iirc.

I tried MBC coated bullet in my 629 too & with moderate speed powders I got leading just past the forcing cone, but with slow powders they were okay. (Have had the same issue with their's in other calibers too: .41 & 500S&W) Since I prefer to use moderate powders for target loads I've gone to shooting Xtreme plated & use what I want. They might be fine in your gun & worth a try though. I've just been a little disappointed in MBC's coating quality.

.
 
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.

My Lee sizing & FCD measurements are within .001" of yours. The expander die's diameter is what I'd be curious on. My Lee expander die is .428".

.

The Flare/expander diameter doesn't really concern me because I only flare the very minimum possible amount to get a bullet started, no more.

When your round goes through the FCD does it work a bit at the bullet? I would say mine does for about 50% of the cartridges but just a very slight amount when it does.
 
I don't think I've used the L-FCD with the Xtreme 44 plated but I just inserted some loaded Xtreme rounds in it by hand & they go in freely. (Some of my FCDs seem to have a tighter opening than optimal & always give resistance though; 41Mag & 40S&W.)

Back to the expander, even though you're adjusting for minimal flare it's still expanding the case when you run it thru. The tighter (smaller diameter plug) the better. Then the bullets finishes expanding the case out.

.
 
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I see what you mean bluedot. I just measured my expander at .428 in also. On some sized cases it slips right in, on others it is a little bit snug. I could polish it down a little bit and it would not hurt anything. What are your bullets running size wise? I know there is a little variation with those Xtremes.
 
The Xtreme 240gr RNFP average .4294" using a micrometer. Typically the base is the widest point.

I'll buy that for a dollar! I don't have a mic but sounds about right after measuring around with my starrett digital calipers.
 
Clarify something for me, what EXPANDER die are you using. My experience with Lee Handgun dies is that they all come with a powder through FLARING die that only flares the case edge. With RCBS dies it's a different story, they use a piloted flaring plug that with some calibers can expand the cases below the flare. IMO Handgun cases should be sized and flared only, any expansion after the sizing operation will only result in a reduction in the Neck tension.
 
So I need to throw out my 1000 Xtreme bullets that I have and get some lead or coated? I think I will make an attempt to work through the issue first. I was looking to buy some Missouri coated bullets but the Xtremes were cheaper, about $60 for 500. Missouri's were about $85 for 500 iirc.

The bullets seat pretty easily, maybe a little more pressure then seating a 45 acp bullet.

Would like to hear some other peoples die and case dimensions if someone has a chance to do some measuring. :)

No, you would be better off to buy a taper crimp die for 44 caliber. Revolver dies are made to roll crimp. If you set them to a heavy crimp on a plated bullet you will break through the plating.
 
Clarify something for me, what EXPANDER die are you using.

I am using the lee powder thru expander/flaring die that is included in the 4 die carbide set.


No, you would be better off to buy a taper crimp die for 44 caliber. Revolver dies are made to roll crimp. If you set them to a heavy crimp on a plated bullet you will break through the plating.

I have heard of people using taper crimp on plated revolver bullets. What are the advantages of it OTHER than plating break thru? I know that I can destroy neck tension with too much taper crimp, I experienced that with some 9mm and 45 auto. So on a revolver cartridge do you taper crimp the same amount as you would on say a 45 auto? or do you crimp heavier?

Thanks
 
You mention you are using the LEE FCD.

Now you can do all kinds of measurements and quantitative analysis or start with the simplest things first.:)

99% of the time it is a lack of enough crimp , crimp is want keeps the bullet from creep/pull, neck tension is still important but don't fret about it.

How much are you turning the FCD adjustment knob after it touches the top of the bullet and can turn no further??

1/2 turn is generally not enough, it needs more.

Make a dummy round and crimp it turning the knob at least 3/4 turn, try another at 1 full turn. Now break the rounds down with a bullet puller hammer.

Look at the grooves in the bullets, you effectively can make your own crimp groove as long as it is not broken through the plating.

Try that and see if it stops the bullet pulling out.
 
Bc38 my T/C Contender in .22K Hornet with a Leupold 2.5 x 6 power scope off sandbags will shoot under a 1''. Yesterday 4 shot group was my best at .350'' at 100 yards. Last week I was running around .390'' 50 grain Hornady bullet ahead of IMR 4227 small pistol primer CCI 500. And this groups are measured center / center with calipers. Oh I almost forgot this was with brass I was fire forming.
 
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Bc38 my T/C Contender in .22K Hornet with a Leupold 2.5 x 6 power scope off sandbags will shoot under a 1''. Yesterday 4 shot group was my best at .350'' at 100 yards. Last week I was running around .390'' 50 grain Hornady bullet ahead of IMR 4227 small pistol primer CCI 500. And this groups are measured center / center with calipers. Oh I almost forgot this was with brass I was fire forming.

:confused:
And this is so related to the OP 44 Mag revolver crimping issue?
 
From some guy named Seyfried...

https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=212&magid=18

Crimps The crimp, or lack of a crimp, is a very important component. Crimps can be: good, bad, indifferent, essential or just plain irrelevant. Handloaders who understand them and use them correctly are better at their trade and more apt to hit their targets. Let's begin with crimps we cannot live without and work our way through different kinds of loads and cartridges with varying degrees of "need." Shotshells demand crimps, perfect crimps, to be at their best. Actually, crimping a shotshell is so essential that their value and quality are easy to overlook. Your first reaction to shotshell crimps is probably, "Well, sure, fool, you have to crimp them or the shot falls out." That is true, but there is more to it than meets the eye. We can and will make a full study of the art in another column, but for now we will look at the basic premise. Beyond folding the shell closed so the shot does not roll around in our pocket (very embarrassing), the crimp quality has a huge impact on a shotshell's ballistics. This is one arena where a handloader is hard pressed to be as effective as an ammunition factory. They get to start with brand new hulls, while we usually are working with second-hand models. Also, because we are frugal, we are apt to use a shotshell hull a bit too often. The essence of shotshell crimps is uniformity, tempered by strength. The "crimp-pull" on a shotshell is a bit like revving the engine before you release the clutch. The resistance of the crimp is an important component in the powder burn. Usually less crimp pull means less efficient acceleration. A crimp that is too shallow, or formed with a soft, worn hull is apt to cause low velocity and inefficiency. Conversely, a crimp that is too deep can actually cause excess pressure in an otherwise normal and correct load. The bottom line is that they should be the same from shell to shell, and they should be very similar in depth to factory shells with that hull type. Variations that cause velocity spread are simply apt to cause you to miss, while uniformly inadequate crimps can produce uniform velocities that are low enough to compromise the shell's ability. Handgun cartridges have a varying affinity for crimp, depending on the cartridge and load type. "Magnums," if loaded to full power, and/or ones that use slow powder, usually demand major crimps. Here the crimp has two functions: creating resistance to help the powder burn and to keep the bullets in the cases. Before we go further, it is important to understand that the actual "crimp," pressing the case into the bullet, is only part, perhaps a minor part, of the total called bullet pull. More important than the crimp itself is the grip the case walls have on the bullet. If you need a heavy crimp and the case does not grip sufficiently, no amount of mashing the case mouth into the bullet will make up for the shortfall. The most obvious demonstration of weak bullet pull is with big-bore, magnum revolvers. These machines are inertial bullet pullers. Under recoil, the gun and case move rearward violently, while the bullet wants to stand still. If, after firing part of the cylinder, the bullets are beginning to creep out of the unfired loads, the bullet pull was insufficient. Our first reaction and remedy is to apply more "crimp." Assuming the offending rounds had a good crimp to begin, the culprit is probably not the crimp at all. Instead, it is most likely the cases were not hugging the bullets tightly enough. At times sizing dies are undersize, but oversize expanders are far more common. Essentially, the "hole" in the case left after resizing and expanding should be .003 to .005 inch smaller than the bullet diameter. After you seat a bullet, you should be able to see and feel a slight bulge in the case at the base of the bullet. Also, I think I have perfection if I can detect the location of the grease grooves in a cast bullet by very slight depressions in the case wall. This kind of load is doing everything it can to hold the bullet in place. This not only keeps the bullets from jumping out of revolver cartridges, but also from being driven into auto-pistol rounds during the feeding cycle. If you begin with this heavy case grip on the bullet and add a good crimp into the crimp groove or cannelure, the bullets should stay put. This holds true for even the most savage recoil produced by the heavy .45s, .475s and .500s. If you have this maximum bullet pull and the bullets still refuse to stay put for four or five rounds (depending on whether the gun is a five- or six-shooter), the trouble is likely due to too much powder compression. There is a limit to how much you can compress powder and keep the bullets in place. Once you cross that line, no amount of crimp and case tension can overcome it. As we back away from the fire-breathing applications, crimp can become less important. Most auto-pistol rounds only want the slightest degree of roll or taper crimp to streamline the case mouth to increase feeding and ejection reliability. If the loads are of modest power and the powders are relatively fast (in contrast to H-110, W-296 and 2400 speeds), you might need little or no crimp at all. Experimentation is the answer. Check first for function and ill-fated jumping bullets. If everything works okay, compare the accuracy and velocity spread of heavily crimped versus lightly or uncrimped loads. The .32 H&R Magnum is an interesting example. Even when loaded with "heavy" 110- and 120-grain bullets, driven by H-110 powder, uncrimped rounds are usually slightly faster and offer groups half the size of heavily crimped ones. Whatever degree of crimp you use, it is always best to apply it with a separate operation, first seating the bullets to correct depth and then crimping with a separate die or the standard seating die with the seating stem backed away from the bullet. In contrast to shotguns and handguns where crimp is usually a good thing, rifles often do not like crimp, nor do they need it. I am fascinated by the ammunition factory's desire to almost cut the bullets in two with the crimp on almost every cartridge they make - including recoilless things like .222 Remington and .22 Hornet. In my opinion crimp is either neutral or harmful to accuracy and rarely offers any benefit at all. Very heavy cartridges, like the .458 Winchester, might try to drive the bullets into the cases during recoil. Normally, good heavy case tension, as prescribed for handguns, will prevent the disease. If not, a slight crimp might help. Also, semiautomatics might need a bit of crimp to keep the bullets in place while the action slams and batters them into the barrel, and lever actions with long, tubular magazines might want some crimp. Beyond applications that absolutely demand it, crimping bullets in rifle cartridges is frivolous at best. Ultimately look at crimp on metallic cartridges as secondary to the resistance of the case neck itself. Apply maximum crimp to heavy handgun loads and then work from the premise that crimping most other cartridges is unnecessary. - See more at: https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=212&magid=18#sthash.yx1gJowV.dpuf
 
I'm with Bluedot @ post#15 . You can either polish down the expander , or contact LEE to get a smaller one for nominal cost.

Or use existing expander with .430-.431 cast bullets. Probably also be acceptable with most loads using real jacketed bullet with crimp groove/ canelure .
 
I was proving my experience my brass is mixed and has not been trimmed for sometime now. Good dies such as the ones by Hornady make tighter dimensional dies. Making bullets along with crimp not jump or pull from recoil. My loads for my Ruger are not the same as my Smith & Wesson 629. The same 250 SWC Keith wanna be cast bullet. The loads for the Ruger Super Blackhawk are near max or a little over max. As stated earlier I shoot most of my handguns on the 100 yard range. As our club makes you qualifily 6 rounds in the black no if and or but. Sorry if my first post was out of line but it had merit in my mind.
 
99% of the time it is a lack of enough crimp , crimp is want keeps the bullet from creep/pull, neck tension is still important but don't fret about it.

WRONG!

This statement is 180 degrees bass ackwards! See response #25.

The OP answered his own question when he took his measurements. Look at his I.D. measurements. Reduce the diameter of the expander plug by .002". That should cure your problem as long as the sizing die is doing it's job.

Bruce
 
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WRONG!

This statement is 180 degrees bass ackwards! See response #25.

The OP answered his own question when he took his measurements. Look at his I.D. measurements. Reduce the diameter of the expanded plug by .002". That should cure your problem as long as the sizing die is doing it's job.

Bruce

What's the crimp groove for then? For looks?. I load full house Magnum loads in 357, 41, 44 and 460 and crimp the heck out of lead bullets, I have no bullet creep or pull. I have no issue with Gold Dots or XTPs either.

I use the same dies but do not use plated bullets,primary for these reasons which I said in the beginning.

I tend to follow loading manuals and bullet makers rather than Gun Mag writers. The article is a mis mash of rifle. shotgun, semi aut and revolvers , It is a long winded difficult to extract any info
 
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I got some good info and I guess I stirred up a little controversy too!:D

What I know from the research I have done and information you have provided is that case tension should be first priority. Crimp is second priority. Crimping does NOT fix case tension.

I think there are 2 compounding issues leading to my problem.

#1. Flare die. I think my flare die was a little bit oversize causing the case mouth to open up too much. Not just at the mouth but about 1/4" down from the mouth also. What I did was sand and polish the flare die. I removed about .003" material on the lower 3/4 of the die. I might remove more if I still have issues. I think this is a good start.

#2. Sizing Die. I contacted Lee and described my problem to technical support. I gave them my sizing die dimensions (.450/.4505) and they said that the die is oversize. Send it in and a replacement will be provided. So I am sending the die out. I'll report back the replacement die dimensions.

Between these 2 things I think my problem should be resolved. If not you will see this thread pop back up:)

Fyi, I polished down my 9mm and 45 acp flare dies also, after measuring them I think they were working the case mouth a little too much also. I think this is good, cheap and easy way to prevent problems with the Lee die set.

Thanks for your input,
3rdgenman
 
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