So, just thinking about getting a lever action. I was looking at both the 44 and 45. When I look at the SAAMI data, the 44 mag is between 36-40k while the 45 Colt is only a paltry 14k. I understand that the case is part of the equation but that much of a difference? If they made a better case for the 45 Colt could the pressure be upped. I did a quick search for 44 VS 45 and of course the 44 came out ahead. Funny thing is when you look at the case, they are almost identical except for the diameter. COL is almost the same as well. Is SAAMI just being too cautious?
44 mag vs 45 Colt
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For a lever action rifle you could get a Rossi M92 in 454 Casull which is somewhat more powerful than a .44 Magnum but it will also fire .45 Long Colt ammo if you are in the mood for something that doesn't kick the heck out of you.
Buying the .44 Mag lever gun also lets you shoot .44 Special...Buying a .44 Mag and a .454 Casull lets you shoot all four!...
...Ben- Joined
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I've had a variety of .45 Colt revolvers and three long guns since the '70s and shot lots of cast bullet handloads through all of them. Got rid of everything .45 Colt in the last few years. There is much nostalgic value to the .45 Colt and it remains a good cartridge. I much prefer the .44 Special and .44 Magnums. Certainly more versatile and they'll do all the .45 Colt will and then some.
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I believe modern .45 brass is just as strong as the .44. If you look at some of Taffin's stuff, the .45 can be loaded hotter with less pressure.
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Perhaps , but there's no "I believe" when loading for the .44 Magnum and it's simpler. Just use righteous published data. I'm a Taffin advocate; as long as his data has been pressure tested and is good in all guns chambered for the .45 Colt, I'll certainly not speak against it.
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I have several Ruger bolt and semi autos in 44 mag. Can't imagine a Colt being any better
sparkyvega
Member
It's not the brass that limits the 45C pressure rating. The 45C cartridge was first used in 1872. Back then, firearm designs and more important metallurgy weren't as advanced as it was in 1956 when the 44RM was first introduced, so the old 45C firearms, and there are many, many old 45C firearms out there, just weren't designed to handle the 44RM pressures. However, 44RM velocities can be approached in certain modern 45C firearms such as Ruger Redhawks and Super Redhawks, and this, for example:
Starline brass in 45 Colt, fired in a modern 1892, is worth looking at.
Have read that a mag tube, full of heavy bullets and max loads, may cause the mag tube to loosen.
Nice to have 44 and 45 leverguns.
Have read that a mag tube, full of heavy bullets and max loads, may cause the mag tube to loosen.
Nice to have 44 and 45 leverguns.
I had always heard the reason winchester dident make a 45 colt lever gun during the hayday of lever guns was due to the rim of the colt case. I know they make them now but i dont know anyone who has one and if this is still an issue in modern times. I have a 44 lever gun it works fine. Just have to use a bullet that feeds and chambers.
Thank goodness sparkyvega let the cat out of the bag, it's helpful to understand why the .45 Colt is standardized where it is.
If you own the guns that can safely make use of modern .45 Colt, the ability of the round easily distances itself from the .43 Magnum. It has the ability to do more with less pressure and it's even more pleasant to shoot than the smaller round.
If you own the guns that can safely make use of modern .45 Colt, the ability of the round easily distances itself from the .43 Magnum. It has the ability to do more with less pressure and it's even more pleasant to shoot than the smaller round.
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This!
venomballistics
Member
its not the case so much as the history.
The 45 colt starts life at an anvil loaded with black powder.
Time, metallurgy and industrial development evolved the gun around the cartridge.
A look back shows a series of changes that makes its standards more like suggestions.
The 44 magnum was Elmer Keiths baby. His work with the 45 lead to a rather clever play between remington and smith & wesson to get the concept of the 44 magnum into reality.
He blew up a good number of 45's traversing the minefield of mixed standards making the need for a better solution self evident.
the 44 simply reinvented the 45 colt into something that would follow along into the modern era and put an end to the drama.
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Yes, he got away from the .45 Colt altogether after it was supplanted by the .44 Magnum.
tate razor
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The are both great! If you are a hand loader Either cartridge will do anything you need it to do within reason. If you don't handload, the .44 Magnum would be my choice. shooting the specials or mags gives you more of a choice. The .45 Colt pressures are less than half of the .44 unless you buy ammo like Buffalo Bore or Underwwood and then the price is up there. Take a look at the Chiappa 1892 rifles they are chambered in both calibers and are very nice. They also don't have the stupid crossbolt safety as the Marlin copies. The half-cock position is the only safety the gun was designed for.
Ruffian Two
Member
MAX: see you were a 95B. What years did you do ? I did 65-67-in Nam.
If you're an experienced hand loader, 45 Colt is superior to 44mag in both handgun and rifle.
There's essentially three levels of pressure loads for 45 colt. Standard cowboy loads. 14,000 psi. Even the existing guns made in 1873 will handle these. Modern manufactured handguns made after roughly 1970 will handle all 45 Colt loads that are the equivalent of 45acp+p pressure (24,000 psi) and then the 45colt +p loads that are listed usually as the Ruger/Thompson Encore loads at 31,000 psi. Most/many of the third tier loads will exceed top end 44 mag loads in muzzle energy. Any rifle will handle the Ruger/Thompson Encore loads (i.e. 30,000 psi) with no problem.
So there's tons of versatility in power with 45 colt. It's a larger bullet that cuts a bigger hole and can deliver more power on target in the right platform.
But it's also more complicated to keep track of all those different types of loads for different guns. And you can't really buy any Tier 2 factory ammo. Just tier 1 and tier 3. If you're not a hand loader 44 mag is likely the better option.
There's essentially three levels of pressure loads for 45 colt. Standard cowboy loads. 14,000 psi. Even the existing guns made in 1873 will handle these. Modern manufactured handguns made after roughly 1970 will handle all 45 Colt loads that are the equivalent of 45acp+p pressure (24,000 psi) and then the 45colt +p loads that are listed usually as the Ruger/Thompson Encore loads at 31,000 psi. Most/many of the third tier loads will exceed top end 44 mag loads in muzzle energy. Any rifle will handle the Ruger/Thompson Encore loads (i.e. 30,000 psi) with no problem.
So there's tons of versatility in power with 45 colt. It's a larger bullet that cuts a bigger hole and can deliver more power on target in the right platform.
But it's also more complicated to keep track of all those different types of loads for different guns. And you can't really buy any Tier 2 factory ammo. Just tier 1 and tier 3. If you're not a hand loader 44 mag is likely the better option.
venomballistics
Member
Hence the 454 Casull since folks kept trying where Keith came to his senses.
99% of what we do with guns and ammo is for fun and sport.
Theres nothing wrong with this, even if you must assign some flavor of justification to it for others.
You're among friends here, embrace and admit to this 99%. it's okay.
this leaves the remaining 1% where work must be done, often under pressure where one may have time to grab a gun and scoop up a handful of ammo to take care of business.
Let's say you manage a non +P 38 and a handful of 38 you loaded for a 357 mag rifle well past +P when duty called.
This might not end well.
My 38's are loaded for all 38's ... all.
If I want or need more, it's loaded into 357. One size fits all.
in 45-70, this one size fits all principal is satisfied a little differently. there is not, nor will there ever be, any so chambered arm in my collection that is of a standard less than the 1895 lever action benchmark.
This principal is maintained across everything.
Split standards will never cause a bad day to get worse, or a range day to turn bad
Venom ballistics,
Yeah 45 colt just isn't an urban edc, or home defense round or end of the world round for me. 9mm and 223 for that. So none of those concerns are really anything i consider with the 45 colt round. 45 colt is a woods carry, hunting, and range fun round. And developing all the different loads for those kinds of applications makes it really fun.
And I've loaded and shot my whole life and never had a problem mixing up loads for wrong guns. Maybe I'm more organized than others. I don't know. But its just never been an issue.
Yeah 45 colt just isn't an urban edc, or home defense round or end of the world round for me. 9mm and 223 for that. So none of those concerns are really anything i consider with the 45 colt round. 45 colt is a woods carry, hunting, and range fun round. And developing all the different loads for those kinds of applications makes it really fun.
And I've loaded and shot my whole life and never had a problem mixing up loads for wrong guns. Maybe I'm more organized than others. I don't know. But its just never been an issue.
There are several very stout bear loads for the .45 Colt. The Colt is lower pressure because of the many vintage Colt peacemakers out there which will not handle the higher pressures. I have lever actions in .22 LR, .327 Federal, .38 special/.357 mag. .41 mag, .44 Special/.44 mag and .45 Colt. I like my .41 the best and then prefer the .45 over the Colt. That being said, .44 Mag ammunition is easier to find.
I'll mention I've owned a Rossi M92 in 454 Casull, since that's been suggested. Initially it was super accurate and a fun gun. I started running really hot 454 through it and was rivaling 45-70 in muzzle energy in the lighter bullet weights. But the rifling in the barrel was rough. Really rough. And it started copper fouling with the hot loads and accuracy went to crap. I would remove the copper fouling with the various solvents and accuracy would return. But more than 30 rounds of hot 454 and the copper fouling would return and it would go from 2 inch groups at 50 yards (open sights) to 8 inch plus at 50 yards. Super frustrating. I ended up selling it and getting a Henry X in 45 colt. Much happier.
Well what is your intended purpose/use of the rifle?
For a long time and a gazillon threads people have been tying to mangnumize the 45 Colt. It is what it is.
There are many articles that have substantial loads that will take down pretty much any North America animal and not blow your shoulder off. This is more for handguns but gives you an idea.
www.gunsandammo.com
For a long time and a gazillon threads people have been tying to mangnumize the 45 Colt. It is what it is.
There are many articles that have substantial loads that will take down pretty much any North America animal and not blow your shoulder off. This is more for handguns but gives you an idea.
45 Colt Load Data - Guns and Ammo
It's pretty hard to find any other handgun cartridge that is as versatile as the good old 45 Colt. If you're into reloading, here's some valuable load data to get you started.
www.gunsandammo.com
AJ
US Veteran
My .45 Colt. It is a Pedersoli copy of an 1877 Colt Lightening. This is a pump, I like it better than I do a lever gun. It will keep them all in a 6 inch bulls at 50 yards in the off hand postion. While not a .44 Magnum, it will get the job done.
Hilldweller
Member
The object in "the day" was to match the rounds thus allowing you to use the same rounds in both your rifle and sidearm. Same logic applies today regardless of caliber.
If you already own the pistol you plan on pairing with the lever gun matching the ammo will make things a lot easier on you.
Note: it's easy to confuse ammo of similar sizes. Another reason to match the calibers. Reaching for .45 colt and accidentally grabbing the .44 cal is a headache you can easily avoid.
PS - I was a member of SASS for decades and witnessed more than a few get jammed up making that simple error during competition.
If you already own the pistol you plan on pairing with the lever gun matching the ammo will make things a lot easier on you.
Note: it's easy to confuse ammo of similar sizes. Another reason to match the calibers. Reaching for .45 colt and accidentally grabbing the .44 cal is a headache you can easily avoid.
PS - I was a member of SASS for decades and witnessed more than a few get jammed up making that simple error during competition.
OutAtTheEdge
Member
If you want a rifle that'll allow you to maximize performance, why buy a pistol caliber? Just get a 45-70. On the other hand, if you actually want pistol caliber performance in a carbine, buy the one that works best for you. Personally, I have lever guns in both .357 and .44 magnum. It's pointless to try to stretch the .357 gun and ammo to the limit, when I can easily just grab a bigger gun.
I've never found that pairing the same rounds in both a rifle and handgun to be very useful.
I understand its usefulness When it's1890 and you're on a cattle drive and have to carry all your ammo on a bandolier or in a saddle bag for the next two months. But in modern day even two weeks on a hunt with pack mules it's not really helpful or necessary at all to try and have both your rifle and handgun use the same cartridge. Those that do it today are just enjoying the nostalgia of past days. Good for them.
But there's no modern reason (outside of SASS competitions) to feel like your lever rifle and your revolver have to shoot the same round. They just don't.
I understand its usefulness When it's1890 and you're on a cattle drive and have to carry all your ammo on a bandolier or in a saddle bag for the next two months. But in modern day even two weeks on a hunt with pack mules it's not really helpful or necessary at all to try and have both your rifle and handgun use the same cartridge. Those that do it today are just enjoying the nostalgia of past days. Good for them.
But there's no modern reason (outside of SASS competitions) to feel like your lever rifle and your revolver have to shoot the same round. They just don't.
I like both. This is a .44 Mag, shooting .44 specials; the bullet impact is the loud part. (Remember, most problems show up in the dark)
One .45 Colt one .454
And this is a 457 Wild West (after you take STUPID people camping in the interior of Alaska who eat in their tent), after being warned about Grizzlies.
If you reload, the .45 will outperform the .44; both will handle anything that walks in North America if you can do your part. If you are only using factory ammunition, I would recommend the .44 Magnum for its variety and power factors.
One .45 Colt one .454
And this is a 457 Wild West (after you take STUPID people camping in the interior of Alaska who eat in their tent), after being warned about Grizzlies.
If you reload, the .45 will outperform the .44; both will handle anything that walks in North America if you can do your part. If you are only using factory ammunition, I would recommend the .44 Magnum for its variety and power factors.
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It's hard to do if you're trying to get one cartridge using one load to work well in a handgun and a rifle or carbine. It's possible and I've done it only in .45 Colt so far but these were standard pressure factory equivalent cast handloads, not high-performance balls-to-the-wall loads.
I'm trying the same thing right now with two new Marlins by Ruger, .357 and .44 Magnum carbines. I think I'll get there but it may take a while.
grice
Member
With an 1892 action you can load the 45 colt up to ruger Blackhawk pressures 32k psi no problem and safely and starline brass is tested for magnum levels, that's from starlines statement as well. Even the Marlin 94 is in this category. I have several of both 44 and 45 colt revolvers and rifles and been using these loads for over 50 years. I'll go with the 45 colt any day of the week!
