44 mag vs 45 Colt

[rockquarry]

.44 Magnum vs. .45 Colt; usual thread meander...

 

[edjack]

I had always heard the reason winchester dident make a 45 colt lever gun during the hayday of lever guns was due to the rim of the colt case. I know they make them now but i dont know anyone who has one and if this is still an issue in modern times. I have a 44 lever gun it works fine. Just have to use a bullet that feeds and chambers.

I read that, way back then, Winchester refused to chamber their long guns for Colt ammo. Hence, the .44-40 became preferred.

 

[RebCop]

I've owned a .45 Colt carbine and it would shoot Ruger level loads just fine. A reliable accurate and powerful little carbine.

 

[Hair Trigger]

I load all my .45 Colt loads the same for convenience. What I get 800 fps with in my 4" M25-5, I get just under 900 fps in my 7-1/2" Uberti 1875 Remington, and 1175 fps in my 20" Henry lever action. I also have a 5-1/2" Uberti 1873 Colt in .45 Colt. I could go hotter in all of them, but there is plenty of energy in a 250 grain bullet at 800 fps and that much more in the rifle. Recoil is mild and they are very accurate from any of the guns I have, no reason to go any hotter, really. At 75 yards with the rifle, they darn near knock the gongs off their hangers.

 

[Imissedagain]

Despite the greatness of the 44Mag and 45LC, beyond greatness, was just around the corner.
I mainly use 460 Brass, but recently bought 100 45LC Starline Brass.
Only used the Chrony, for arrows and airguns, but I'll get a chance to shoot it soon.
Pics from Web






Have a Miroku/Winchester '92, in 45LC, 24" barrel, one of 5K with some engraving.
My boy likes that one, compared to the '94 16" Ranger.
Both shoot nice.
Ruger 45C Blackhawk 7.5", and recently put on a stainless grip frame.
Better balance on that tack driver.
Smith at Ruger, back around '81, made it a Bullseye shooter.

 

[Radny97]

The problem with the 460 S&W is it's only chambered in X-frame revolvers. Great guns but the longer barrel ones weigh as much as a rifle and you need a chest holster to carry them. And the snubbys shown above don't offer more in velocity than a 454.

But back to the topic. The two biggest practical downsides to the 45 colt is the lack of Tier 2 factory offerings (not a problem for hand loaders) and the fact that there are very few good carry options for 45 Colt in DA/SA revolvers. There's the S&W model 25 (4 and 6 inch barrels available) and the charter arms bulldog xl (2.5 and 4.2 inch versions available) that's it.
In the meantime there's tons and tons of options in 44 mag.

I own a 6 inch model 25. Just a work of art. I have a bulldog xl 4.2 inch coming to my dealer this week. We'll see if I am happy with it. If I'm happy then the bulldog will be on my hip during my elk hunt in a few weeks. If I'm not happy with it, then I'll be taking my S&W 329pd

 

[Lance Boyle]

I've never found that pairing the same rounds in both a rifle and handgun to be very useful.
I understand its usefulness When it's1890 and you're on a cattle drive and have to carry all your ammo on a bandolier or in a saddle bag for the next two months. But in modern day even two weeks on a hunt with pack mules it's not really helpful or necessary at all to try and have both your rifle and handgun use the same cartridge. Those that do it today are just enjoying the nostalgia of past days. Good for them.
But there's no modern reason (outside of SASS competitions) to feel like your lever rifle and your revolver have to shoot the same round. They just don't.

Especially when it was all still black powder. It worked then.

These days with all the powders available (in theory anyway) to use we can make ammo better for carbine or for pistol by changing powder. It kind of diminishes the value of having both in the same caliber if they're actually not the same. Now your universal ammo is a substitute back up ammo for one of the guns or worse possibly loaded too hot for the other one. Frankly I'd carry a .44-40 for one and a .45 Colt for the other to avoid any safety issues. Then again for CAS I think anything that can make it ten feet out of the barrel is adequate for that game. No need to go full tilt, they shoot powder puff loads.

 

[JimmyDee]

Forgive my ignorance but I have a couple of questions regarding this thread generally...
A. I'm not really a "rifle guy" although I do have a couple, one of which is a Marlin 336 in .35 Rem. I'm interested in a pistol caliber lever and have considered a .357 but those seem to be held in VERY high esteem by their manufacturers! VERY expensive! I could get a .45-70 way cheaper but I've always been led to believe that that's almost an elephant load and way too powerful for anything I'd ever be interested in shooting. Someone said here (I think) that a .45-70 would enable you to shoot .45LC also. That true?
B. I think I remember reading long ago that S&W made a .45LC in a DA revolver and that it was available with a short barrel. Can any of you guys confirm this?
Thanks in advance. Ed

45-70 and 45 Colt use completely different bullets.
S&W offered their 4" Mountain Gun in both 44 Rem Mag and 45 Colt.

 

[DocSkinner]

The 45 Colt is not a 44 Magnum. SAAMI specs on either of them is the specs that you need to reload to. 60 years difference or maybe more in the invention of either - lots happened in between and it mattered.

Yes, like NOBODY makes balloon head brass for 45 Colt anymore.
Ruger (et al.) make revolvers with MODERN metallurgy and strength to handle higher pressure.

Maybe you should jump forward 60 years and join the current world.

 

[Malamute]

I am setting up my .357 Marlin for my use (RDS, sling, bright flashlight, etc). It would not be worth the $$ but for 2 things.

The first is it will be in the safe we are putting in our RV (we will never fly or do a long drive in a car again after my kidney transplant), and while an AR is exponentially better for my use, travel through random places might present legal or litigation problems based on cockamamie state laws. A lever is far less likely to cause pearl clutching and bloomer bunching from the low functioning adherents of Oedipus in some places.

The second is that depending how I load it, that lever gun will do anything I foresee needing. Since I broke my shoulder (as described to others, I gave that surgeon some really awful XRays from which to work), recoil is not my pal. My shotgun (M590 with VangComp treatment, RDS, sling and light) will eventually be sold, along with all of its ammo. I accept that the odds of my shoulder ever being as good as it was as issued are tiny, so I have to cheat and work around that. The calibers bigger than .357 are too likely to present the same problem as the shotgun, so they are not a consideration.

I also have injuries that make recoil problematic. 410 savage insert tubes make a break open 12 ga usable for varmints around the yard, but a regular stocked 12 ga with full power loads isnt happening. I tried a shockwave, its actually not difficult to shoot when correctly done. Looking up info on the shockwave, people were shooting them fine, including skeet, which reflected my previous experience with a cut down butt stock-less shotgun. Technique is key. Holding it out at eye level with basically the same sight picture as a stocked gun and left arm straight or nearly so, push-pull method of holding it, its pretty much a non-issue. The common pistol grips for shotguns are horrible to shoot, the birdshead or raptor grip is not bad at all. Shooting any of them at hip level is not particularly useful or effective and a waste of ammo and time. The shockwave seems to hit about a foot higher than expected, adjust your hold accordingly or put better sights on it, which I plan to do. If anyone claims no good use is possible with a shockwave, consider that many people seem to be able to do so. Yes, its somewhat of a handicap, but far from useless.



I live on the edge of grizzly country, they roam within 4 miles of my house regularly and come out from there now and then. My yard gun is a new production winchester 1873 carbine in 357. I do dog walks and skunk patrols in the evening every day. I keep some cast solids around, but the gun usually has 158 gr jsp loads, with one 38 short colt in the chamber and a 38 spl first up behind it for skunks or rattlesnakes. The 45-70s with heavy loads dont get out much unless going into the mountains, and I truly hope I dont have to shoot it. Im looking at downloading to black powder velocities and a shotgun butt with pad on the 86 to make it more shootable in my advancing decrepitude.

The browning 92 carbine has mostly had medium level loads shot in it since I got it, 200 gr cast with 9 grs Unique, more like 44-40 level loads. Its an ok walk around gun when not where the bears live. I keep meaning to work on the carrier to get it to feed longer loads, upgrading its utility for heavier loads that I already have on hand. Its a pretty simple modification of the cartridge stop on the carrier. I have keith loads with the lyman 429421 bullets for the 29, I dont shoot them much, but have them for carry loads when in the mts. At this point Im not sure I want to shoot heavy loads in the 92 unless I had a shotgun butt with soft pad, it may still be more than I can shoot without lasting problems. Extra-light round ball loads in 30-30, 45-70, 348, 44 mag and plan on 357, besides the 38 short colt loads add quite a bit to the utility of the guns, giving 22 noise level with the magazine loaded with full power loads immediately available. Nice when hunting small game or grouse in bear country or just to pop a snake or pack rat or whatever. The winchester actions are easier to single load and clear than the marlins.

Hunting guns and walk around guns serve different purposes, pistol caliber carbines work fine for most walk around gun purposes other then grizzly country, and even then will work with good loads, though recoil levels go up significantly if that matters. Using the same loads as the pistol does make it simpler when out and about. How many rounds do you want to carry on you for rifle and pistol? How far are you walking? I usually have a cartridge belt on with 25 rds for whatever pistol, adding a different caliber rifle adds to the load to carry around, even if its just 10 spares in the pocket. Traveling seasonally it also helps simplify.

I have both 44 mag Smith and 45 colt Ruger with Linebaugh suggested loads for carry in the mountains, what caliber I use depends on the gun, 44s in the 29, 45s in the ruger. The single action grip is easier on the hands than the DA smiths in older, beat up hands. Either caliber work fine otherwise. Carbines in either caliber work when properly loaded for intended uses.

I had a ruger ring base machined down thin and silver soldered to the side of the mag tube on the browning 92. The ruger 1" ring fits a surefire nitrolon or 6p light fine, and the small profile of the ruger base keeps the ugly/annoying chunk of the mount base at a minimum when not needed. Medium level loads (9 grs unique, 240-250 gr cast) in the 4" 29 and the 92 Browning cover most general pistol and carbine uses without a lot of muzzle blast or recoil.

 

[Riposte1]

45-70 and 45 Colt use completely different bullets.
S&W offered their 4" Mountain Gun in both 44 Rem Mag and 45 Colt.

Well...mostly. Ironically back in the early 80s I developed a .45 Colt load with a 345 gr. Gould Express bullet I cast for my 45-70s - of course I had to swage it down to .452 so it would work in .45 Colt.

To be sure, since it is easily idenetifiable, I reserve that for loads in my Ruger revolvers (both Blackhawk and Redhawk) or my Winchester '94 Wrangler - it is not really up to the pressure of the Tier 2 Ruger loads going only a little over 1000 fps in the 4 5/8" (I could safetly drive it to 1250 or even higher) but it does get 1540 fps in my 16" Winchester. Well I could add my Colt Anaconda. Though I have not shot that particular load in the Colt I have shot both Cor-Bon and PMC .45 Colt +P+ load in that - both 325 gr. jacketed soft point bullets at 1350 fps. so far without harm - but I have only fired a few and don't really use that load.

Oddly enough, I shot it at 1550 to 1600 in my 22" Marlin 1895 45-70 (the bulled was .459" for that cartridge).

So there may be a bit of overlap there.

But it is correct to say an unmodified 45-70 bullet should not be chambered in .45 Colt. and of course the 45-70 case will not fit in a .45 Colt

Riposte

 

[Chubbs103]

But back to the topic. The two biggest practical downsides to the 45 colt is the lack of Tier 2 factory offerings (not a problem for hand loaders) and the fact that there are very few good carry options for 45 Colt in DA/SA revolvers. There's the S&W model 25 (4 and 6 inch barrels available) and the charter arms bulldog xl (2.5 and 4.2 inch versions available) that's it.
In the meantime there's tons and tons of options in 44 mag.

Add Ruger Redhawk and Colt Anaconda.