44 magnum gold engraved HELP!
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No idea who did the work, but that a lovely gun and the engraving looks really good to me.
Bee and White typically signed their work (based on what I've seen). Have you looked it over closely with a magnifying glass?
Bee and White typically signed their work (based on what I've seen). Have you looked it over closely with a magnifying glass?
I have several 44 Magnums engraved and inlaid by Alvin White. He normally inlaid a small gold or silver block in the grip frame with A A White Engvr debossed on it. I am confident the 44 was not engraved and inlaid by Mr. White. I am not sure how Angelo Bee signed his work.
I've seen that gun recently, just can't remember where at the moment. Not Bee, or White, I don't think but nice. Did you acquire it recently? RKmesa will remember it for sure and he'll be along to comment. Nice gun, very nice gun.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
Jeff
SWCA #1457
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Bee signed most of his, definitely the one I have, with a tiny bee and ABEE.
Jeff
SWCA #1457
https://flic.kr/p/2pT9dnk https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/- Joined
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As to the engraver, my guess would be Shiro Ogawa /REI Engraving. It looks to be a very nice gun.
Beautiful gun. The Cat reminds me of a T/C
I think so
I found his japenese website and this does appear to be VERY similiar
Katsuo.Iura - Japanese hand engraver - profile
I found his japenese website and this does appear to be VERY similiar
Katsuo.Iura - Japanese hand engraver - profile
I don't know who did the work, but you sure know how to make a GRAND entrance on a forum!!
It looks really nice to me, of course, I always love gold inlayed animals on revolvers. Thanks for sharing.
Larry
It looks really nice to me, of course, I always love gold inlayed animals on revolvers. Thanks for sharing.Larry
Not knowing anything about you pistol other than .44 mag and the serial number, I called S&W customer service and got a 1969-1972 date range. That would have been the time frame REI was in business as mentioned above.
Robert E. Izenstark (Bob) founded REI Engravers located in Park Forest IL. The company was in operation from 1968-1973. Bob Izenstark hired Japanese engravers including master engravers Shiro Ogawa and Hiroo Sugaya as well as their interns. Shiro Ogawa sometimes signed his work "Ogawa" but the others did not. One source says Ogawa was the head engraver and the others were not allowed to sign their work.
I see similarities between your pistol and known yet unsigned REI work. I have several S&W's that have engraving attributed to Hiroo Sugaya but they are unsigned as well.
I don't think Ogawa or Sugaya engraved your pistol, but it may have been one of the unknown interns under them.
I'm still waiting to see what RK thinks.
Robert E. Izenstark (Bob) founded REI Engravers located in Park Forest IL. The company was in operation from 1968-1973. Bob Izenstark hired Japanese engravers including master engravers Shiro Ogawa and Hiroo Sugaya as well as their interns. Shiro Ogawa sometimes signed his work "Ogawa" but the others did not. One source says Ogawa was the head engraver and the others were not allowed to sign their work.
I see similarities between your pistol and known yet unsigned REI work. I have several S&W's that have engraving attributed to Hiroo Sugaya but they are unsigned as well.
I don't think Ogawa or Sugaya engraved your pistol, but it may have been one of the unknown interns under them.
I'm still waiting to see what RK thinks.
I believe it probably is REI
I inherited this pistol from my grandpa who passed away. Along with many other cool guns that I am keeping…. This is the only one he never brought around and no one knew about
He did grow up in Chicago whenever he first moved here post WW2 from Germany
He was in Chicago for many years til coming to Indiana
I inherited this pistol from my grandpa who passed away. Along with many other cool guns that I am keeping…. This is the only one he never brought around and no one knew about
He did grow up in Chicago whenever he first moved here post WW2 from Germany
He was in Chicago for many years til coming to Indiana
The man to ask is Roger Bleile. He has helped me out on several. I'll PM you his email address.
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I'm not sure if I'm helping or misleading...
I know just enough about this to get myself in trouble.
Has the gun been offered for sale anywhere recently? I'm sure I've seen those inlays, or another gun very much like it, recently.
Jeff
SWCA #1547
Jeff
SWCA #1547
Additional digging
Angelo bee is the only one that I've seen
That does the LOOP on the spin chamber
His work still looks VERY similar to this
I'm not saying it is his but I can't rule him out til
An expert declares what it is
Angelo bee is the only one that I've seen
That does the LOOP on the spin chamber
His work still looks VERY similar to this
I'm not saying it is his but I can't rule him out til
An expert declares what it is
YeshuaIsa53
Member
Think I saw the two gold animals on another gun, with a hint of difference.
That may have been here on one of Richard's guns? Maybe one each on two guns?
That may have been here on one of Richard's guns? Maybe one each on two guns?
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Welcome to the forum!
That is a fun gun. I have seen your gun's animal patterns on other engraved guns. Arnold Griebel engraved many gold animals and his animals have been used as inspiration for many engravers. But your gun was not engraved by Mr. Griebel. Without any identifying engraver marks, it is difficult to confirm engravers, but like several of the above have said, it could be an R.E.I. engraver. However, the pattern is different from a lot of the R.E.I. attributed engraving that I have seen. I do not believe it is an Ogawa engraved gun - he generally signed his work. I don't think it is Angelo Bee's work, unless you find the stamped "ABee" or his stamp of a bee, usually in the bottom of the left side of the frame... (also, his animals were a bit more refined).
Roger Bleile is a great resource - I too have had him try and help with several of my guns.
Thanks for sharing!
That is a fun gun. I have seen your gun's animal patterns on other engraved guns. Arnold Griebel engraved many gold animals and his animals have been used as inspiration for many engravers. But your gun was not engraved by Mr. Griebel. Without any identifying engraver marks, it is difficult to confirm engravers, but like several of the above have said, it could be an R.E.I. engraver. However, the pattern is different from a lot of the R.E.I. attributed engraving that I have seen. I do not believe it is an Ogawa engraved gun - he generally signed his work. I don't think it is Angelo Bee's work, unless you find the stamped "ABee" or his stamp of a bee, usually in the bottom of the left side of the frame... (also, his animals were a bit more refined).
Roger Bleile is a great resource - I too have had him try and help with several of my guns.
Thanks for sharing!
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Cotis
Member
Beautiful engraved revolver. Question from a neophyte - how does one even find guns like this to purchase? I work a full time job, never know about these auction house sales until someone posts a score from one of them. So basically if it isn't on the big popular one or two sites I just don't know about it.
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As a complete aside, RKmesa is much too polite to tell you, better pictures are taken in the complete absence of direct lighting. Try some outside on a nice day----in the shade----or better yet, inside with a light box.
Me----I'm nowhere near too polite, and not much of a photographer either; but I know what I know.
Ralph Tremaine
Me----I'm nowhere near too polite, and not much of a photographer either; but I know what I know.
Ralph Tremaine
Sometimes they turn up on the big auction sites. RIA and the other auction houses usually have some too. There were several by Russ Smith in the recent RIA auction but weren't bargains, from my perspective anyway. A pre-29 for $11,750 with no inlays and a pair of 53s one blue with gold inlays for $9988 and a nickel one without inlays for $12,925. Of course nice engraved pieces by unknown or lesser known engravers can be found for a lot less.
If you're an SWCA member and attend the annual Symposiums (June, Tulsa) there are usually some engraved pieces for sale there too (just one of the benefits of being a SWCA member).
Jeff
SWCA #1457
The inlays strike me as done as 'copies' of similar poses done by
Alvin Alexander White.
Not a bad engraver to pick as a personal hero.
At least I seem to recall that AAW did those small animals and in those poses in his work in gold inlay. Maybe I'm confusing him with someone else, but I don't think so.
The detailing, shaping & shading on these does not make it as far as top quality.
The work appears to be Hammer& Chisel work, at least from what I can see in some of the pucs. That stands out from the much more prevalent use of Air-Assist Engraving tools these days.
There are some that continue to learn and use H&Chisel. But the vast majority start with and use Air Assist tools straight through their career.
The first really popular Air Assist Tools came on the market in the early 70's.
The background tree limb(s) for the 'cat' are simplistic at best being just some crosshatch line work. Quick fast fill-in work. No effort to make the area with-in the lines that tell you it's a tree limb that it's a tree limb.
Lots of empty space in the pattern taken up with punchwork stippeling.
Make the scroll work fuller and add to it instead of stippeling the background away.
The grips are either a different set that the engraving was designed around, or the engraver didn't trace the upper curve outline carefully to layout the spacing betw the edge of the side plate engraving and the edge of the grip(s).
Scroll pattern is OK. Single line graver shading cut. Scroll could be fuller in style IMO as I noted, but style is style and everyone cuts and designs differently.
A little heavy handed on the post engraving/cutting polish especially on the bbl where the cuts and lettering look worn over.
Who did the engraving?,,Who knows.
W/O some marking or direct evidence leading to an engraver or shop..it's usually a guess. Some are better than others. Some are the usual few popular names.
The usual names come up often but don't forget there are and have been 100's,, and likely more engravers capable of this work in the USA in the last 60+ yrs.
Many were/are unkn's working as a hobby. Never on a professional level or even part time.
Others did work part time at it and some tried full time.
They didn't all make magazine covers, or have elaborate displays at LV.GunShow.
Before the Net, no one would know who you were unless someone of note in the firearms publication or custom/mfg biz gave you a spotlight
Lot of them came and went in a short time, even more recently, leaving the trade after a taste of it never to return. Some doing very nice work and could have gone on to do spectacular work. But the desire to continue just wasn't there.
It's not an easy road. Plus there's more $$ in a lot of other jobs.
Alvin Alexander White.
Not a bad engraver to pick as a personal hero.
At least I seem to recall that AAW did those small animals and in those poses in his work in gold inlay. Maybe I'm confusing him with someone else, but I don't think so.
The detailing, shaping & shading on these does not make it as far as top quality.
The work appears to be Hammer& Chisel work, at least from what I can see in some of the pucs. That stands out from the much more prevalent use of Air-Assist Engraving tools these days.
There are some that continue to learn and use H&Chisel. But the vast majority start with and use Air Assist tools straight through their career.
The first really popular Air Assist Tools came on the market in the early 70's.
The background tree limb(s) for the 'cat' are simplistic at best being just some crosshatch line work. Quick fast fill-in work. No effort to make the area with-in the lines that tell you it's a tree limb that it's a tree limb.
Lots of empty space in the pattern taken up with punchwork stippeling.
Make the scroll work fuller and add to it instead of stippeling the background away.
The grips are either a different set that the engraving was designed around, or the engraver didn't trace the upper curve outline carefully to layout the spacing betw the edge of the side plate engraving and the edge of the grip(s).
Scroll pattern is OK. Single line graver shading cut. Scroll could be fuller in style IMO as I noted, but style is style and everyone cuts and designs differently.
A little heavy handed on the post engraving/cutting polish especially on the bbl where the cuts and lettering look worn over.
Who did the engraving?,,Who knows.
W/O some marking or direct evidence leading to an engraver or shop..it's usually a guess. Some are better than others. Some are the usual few popular names.
The usual names come up often but don't forget there are and have been 100's,, and likely more engravers capable of this work in the USA in the last 60+ yrs.
Many were/are unkn's working as a hobby. Never on a professional level or even part time.
Others did work part time at it and some tried full time.
They didn't all make magazine covers, or have elaborate displays at LV.GunShow.
Before the Net, no one would know who you were unless someone of note in the firearms publication or custom/mfg biz gave you a spotlight
Lot of them came and went in a short time, even more recently, leaving the trade after a taste of it never to return. Some doing very nice work and could have gone on to do spectacular work. But the desire to continue just wasn't there.
It's not an easy road. Plus there's more $$ in a lot of other jobs.
^^^ That is a very nice assessmnet, 2152hq. The only thing I would add is what appears to be dissimilar coloring from the re-blue. This is unfortunately a common occurrence but, for me at least, it has a significant effect on desirability.
What's it worth? As the saying goes, it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In the case of an auction, it's worth what two people are willing to run it up to unless you start with a hefty reserve.
As far as value, it's a desirable model, caliber and barrel length. The engraving and inlays are certainly eye catching. As 2152hq has alluded to, however, there are several factors which will affect value. The engraving and inlays are good but not master level. The color variations in the bluing and the fact that the engraver is unknown affect value as well.
I'll take a stab at it. Others may think I'm being too conservative, but I would value the pistol in the $4,500 to $7,000 range depending on how it was marketed and sold. The $7,000 price being in a nationally advertised auction including buyers fees and the lower end being a private sale or a local auction.
I was once told by a gun dealer that it's much easier to buy a gun than it is to sell it. In this case, you need someone willing to open up his wallet and hand you thousands of dollars for your pistol. I have found that those willing to spend that kind of money get rather particular about the details mentioned above.
If this was my grandfather's pistol, I wouldn't worry about the value because it would not be for sale.
What's it worth? As the saying goes, it's worth what someone is willing to pay for it. In the case of an auction, it's worth what two people are willing to run it up to unless you start with a hefty reserve.
As far as value, it's a desirable model, caliber and barrel length. The engraving and inlays are certainly eye catching. As 2152hq has alluded to, however, there are several factors which will affect value. The engraving and inlays are good but not master level. The color variations in the bluing and the fact that the engraver is unknown affect value as well.
I'll take a stab at it. Others may think I'm being too conservative, but I would value the pistol in the $4,500 to $7,000 range depending on how it was marketed and sold. The $7,000 price being in a nationally advertised auction including buyers fees and the lower end being a private sale or a local auction.
I was once told by a gun dealer that it's much easier to buy a gun than it is to sell it. In this case, you need someone willing to open up his wallet and hand you thousands of dollars for your pistol. I have found that those willing to spend that kind of money get rather particular about the details mentioned above.
If this was my grandfather's pistol, I wouldn't worry about the value because it would not be for sale.
