44 Russian Second Model

JP@AK

JP@AK

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Hi
I usually don't post in the Antiques section, since I collect hand ejectors. But a gun has surfaced that has my attention. It is a Second Model Russian that appears to be one of the American guns (not Russian contract). It is in fine condition and appears to be all original.
But here it gets interesting. Under the stocks, on the right side of the grip frame (edge of the back strap) are stamped letters that spell out Wyatt S Earp. This was done with individual letter stamps and appears to be quite old. One of Wyatt's middle names was Stapp.
The gun is in Costa Rica currently and I don't know the serial number yet, but I'm inquiring. I've also asked the guy for any information he has on the gun's provenance.
Here's the question: Is there any known connection between Earp and a Russian Model S&W revolver?
Thanks.
 
There are probably thousands of fake guns allegedly belonging to Pancho Villa. One of Villa's widows allegedly made a good living buying junk guns cheap and selling them to Gringo Turistas. Many years ago, I saw a revolver (don't remember what kind) stamped with something indicating his name, but I don't remember what it was ("Villa" maybe), that was represented as being "authentic Pancho Villa." I imagine the same scheme was played out using lots of notorious Old West characters. I sort of remember seeing some rifle long ago that had "Sam Bass" carved into the buttstock. Point is, without some provenance much more authoritative than a name stamped on a gun, I wouldn't assume anything was authentic. And how would Wyatt Earp's revolver get to Costa Rica?
 
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DWalt
I'm not assuming anything at all. But there is no reason not to run this one to ground, given its oddity. I am inquiring as to the gun's provenance elsewhere. Here I'm only asking if anyone knows of a connection between Earp and a Russian Model. That is not an unreasonable line of inquiry IMHO.
Growing up in LA, I knew people who had known Earp (he died there in 1929). I read my grandfather's copy of Stuart Lake's book (it is now in my library) when I was about 8 or 9 years old. I have a long-standing interest in the Earp family and have read tons of material on them. I just don't recall much in the way of which guns they used and/or owned.
I was hoping someone here might have some of that information.
 
Assuming that you find a link connecting Wyatt Earp to a Second Model Russian, how could you establish beyond a reasonable doubt that it is the same Second Model Russian that's in Costa Rica? That would be far more difficult, I'd think.
 
I think the OP's request is valid, in that if one determines that there is no connection between Wyatt Earp and a Second Model Russian, then the firearm in Costa Rica is definitely a fake, end of discussion. If there is a connection, then the situation becomes a bit more complex. Perhaps a will, inventory of Wyatt Earp's assets, a historical letter from Smith & Wesson, etc, could prove that a Second Model Russian with a certain serial number was associated with Wyatt Earp. If this one has a different number, then it is a fake, in all probability. If it has a serial number associated with Wyatt Earp, then it needs to be proven that the firearm in question does not have a fake serial number assigned to it, etc.
 
hope this helps just saw this

UP FOR AUCTION: Smith & Wesson Schofield. WELLS FARGO & CO.EX. Documented to be 100 percent real markings(see Letter). ALL ORIGINAL .44 caliber 5 inch barrel. Action works,Shell ejector works Half cock and Full cock work. A good represenitive piece of Western American History... First Model...45 S&W Caliber 6 shot fluted cylinder. The US Ordnance Department ordered almost the entire production of this model. Many of theses were issued to the U.S. 4th Cavalry,Seeing service in the Geronimo Campaign and the black troopers of the 9th and 10th U.S. Cavalry, the Buffalo Soldiers of the Indian Wars. The James brothers.Jesse and Frank, Cole Younger,of the Younger Brothers,James Gang and Quantrill Raiders and the U.S. Marshall Bill Tilghman also reported carrying the Schofield. Lonesome Charley Reynolds, Chief Scout for Custer is also known to have carried a Schofield. Wells Fargo & Company Markings with inventory number on right side of ejector housing on barrel, Inventory matches Serial number, Barrels were shortened to 5 inches. Sold as goverment surplus to Schuyler,Hartley & Graham, New York dealers,who in turn sold them to Wells Fargo... Markings on left side of gun are SMITH & WESSON, SPRINGFIELD MASS. U,S.A. PAT.JAN 17th & 24th.65. JULY 11th,65.AUG 24th,69. JULY 28th,71.with a Maltese cross on both ends...Markings on right side are SCHOFIELDS PAT.APRIL 22ND,1873. W.F.&CO.EX. 1879. All Markings Are very good and easily readable. Military Inspectors marks under barrel are LP,and also and LP on cylinder and L on inside of frame,The US on worn off, The bottom of the grips are dinged up, Probably from hammering Wanted posters and other. Matching serial numbers 1879 matching on butt of frame and cylinder. Gun has turned a very pleasing blue grey patina.Someone has carved a GWF on the left grip and also on the right grip. very good looking and original gun,Has lots of eye appeal.This is one of those guns you wish could t
 
Also, not finding evidence of a link between Wyatt Earp and a Russian does not necessarily mean that it doesn't exist, just that no records exist of it. The possibilities are endless. Most everyone reading this probably has at least a few guns that could never be connected to them through any records.
 
But if the price was right what a conversation piece. It is harder to prove than to disprove.
 
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There are no S&W factory shipping records that recorded any S&W as being shipped to Wyatt Earp. Many years ago there was a pawn shop engraved second model American on display in a tourist trap store in Tombstone. AZ as being the revolver Wyatt used in the Street Fight with the Clantons & McLaurys ( AKA the OK Corral shootout ). Franklin Mint produced a replica of it in their gunfighter replica series and was successfully sued by S&W to keep S&W's name off the replica. It has been proved to have no connection to Earp. There are several guns known to have been owned by Wyatt, including a Colt SAA he was carrying concealed when he refereed a boxing match in Calif. after he left AZ. He was cited for carrying a concealed firearm and paid a fine. It's not unlikely that among all the guns Wyatt may have owned, a S&W or two, could be in the bunch, however I've never seen any reference of him owning a 2nd model Russian. The definitive work on Wyatt Earp is the multi vol. set " Wyatt Earp, A Biography of the Legend" by my good friend of many years, noted Western author and a legend in himself, Lee A Silva and his late wife, Susan L. Silva. Ed. ( PS: TimC, What's an auction posting of a S&W Wells Fargo Schofield got to do with a 2nd model Russian alleged to have been Wyatt Earp's ? )
 
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opoefc said:
PS: TimC, What's an auction posting of a S&W Wells Fargo Schofield got to do with a 2nd model Russian alleged to have been Wyatt Earp's?
Click to expand...

I had the same question myself!

Thanks for the other comments, Ed. They were helpful. This is more or less what I suspected. Of course, the fact that S&W never shipped a gun to one of the Earps does not, in itself, prove he never owned a particular model of gun. I suspect guys like him and Virgil had several different sidearms over the years. Who really knows how they might have acquired them, and when?
But the gun I'm looking at is clearly not ostentatious in its potential connection to Earp. I rather suspect the connection is non-existent. But the stamping appears to be quite old and it was hidden under the grip panel. It is interesting, at least.
And now that you mention it, I do remember about the boxing match incident, and the fact that the gun in that case was a Colt's. As I recall, the fine was $25, which at the time was not peanuts.
 
Jack, You are correct - nothing can be proved either way, of course. A collector friend of mine, well known to the S&WCA fraternity, acquired a Model 1917 some years ago and later happened to take off the grips and cut into the back side was the name "D. Eisenhower." I tracked the gun's serial number through the Springfield Research's data base and it was in inventory at an Army fort in Texas at the same time Dwight Eisenhower was stationed there as a young officer. Does that prove the gun was issued to Eisenhower? maybe. Who knows. Ike Clanton threw down his gun and ran away and hid in Fly's Photo shop at the OK Corral shootout, which was actually a street fight on Fremont St. in Tombstone. 40 years later the old board sidewalks on Fremont St. were torn up and replaced. A rusty relic Smith & Wesson revolver, a New Model #3, with an original 3 inch barrel, was discovered under the old sidewalk. Was that the gun Ike Clanton discarded? Who knows , however it's in my Rusty Relic S&W collection now! This is what makes S&W collecting so much fun, right? Ed.
 
Thanks, Ed. Great story about the "Eisenhower gun." Yes, anything is possible. Too bad Ike wasn't around to ask if he remembered putting his name on an issue gun . . .

As for the Tombstone find, that is a fascinating coincidence. Could be, who the heck could ever know? But it would be a very cool gun to own!

Regarding the nomenclature, "gunfight at the OK Corral," I tend to think the origin of that inaccurate term came from Stuart Lake, as popularized by Hollywood. As you point out, the fight took place on Fremont Street, about half a block away from the back side of the livery stable, not in or around it. Doc and the Earps were approaching the cowboys on Fremont from the east. They did not even walk through the corral to enter the fray. The cowboys were standing by their horses near the Fry house when the shooting started. I seem to recall one was even mounted and Ike Clanton may have ducked behind his horse before running off.

I tend to think the circumstances of Earp cooperating with Lake has a lot to do with it. Wyatt was hungry for publicity in his old age. The Lake book is largely a gloss, as you are aware. Cooking up clever labels would have been Lake's modus operandi. And it stuck. But it is not really very descriptive of what actually took place.

And yes. This kind of stuff really is a big part of the fun of collecting and discussing S&W revolvers and their history. That is why the example of a Russian model, which led to this thread, sparked my interest.
 
Buy it.... Then start research...gun is worth it alone
 
ersiii said:
Buy it.... Then start research...gun is worth it alone
Click to expand...

Well, as I stated, the gun is in Costa Rica. Not sure what the process is for bringing a gun in from Central America. But if the guy ends up wanting to sell it, I may see what I can do. It would be fun to own it, in any case.
Thanks.
 
Jack, Check with U.S.Customs on whatever the latest rules/laws are on importing a handgun. Like many situations with the Gov't Dep'ts., you will get a different answer to your question from each federal employee you ask, so take every thing with a grain of salt. The gun is an antique under BATF rules, but most Custom staffers are gun ignorant, so may insist on import forms being filed, etc. ( known as a "Form 6 " ) and the import being handled by a 3rd party licensed importer. The 3rd party licensed importer can also act as sort of an escrow agent for you, in that they can accept your payment and not release funds to the seller until they have the gun in their possession, etc. Good Luck, Ed.
 
Buy the gun, not the story. I wouldn't pay one cent more for that gun based on what it is worth for its condition.
 
Regarding Eisenhower, I've read that at least during WWII, he had a Colt Commando, essentially the Colt version of the S&W Victory model. Over all his years in the Army, Eisenhower could easily have had several different handguns.
 
Does anyone know if any of the guns known to be owned by Wyatt Earp have similar markings under the grip?
 
Over his life time, I'm sure Wyatt Earp owned many different firearms, however I am unaware of any guns currently in collections or museums that can be 100% proven to have been one of Earp's firearms. There are many that claim a connection but based on hearsay or unprovable provenance. I have been involved in two different Wyatt Earp Museums over the years and never saw, heard of, or was offered a gun that I could rely on it's proof of an Earp connection. The guns displayed in those museums, merely said " This is an example of the type of revolver, rifle or shotgun that Wyatt Earp was believed to have carried and used at …." I have seen guns in displays and other museums that allege to have been Earp's, but when I investigated their claim it was unfounded. None of any of these guns based their authentication on any name inscribed on the back of a grip panel. There are known guns that came from the Earp family ownership long after Wyatt had passed away, but whether they were Wyatts' is unknown. Ed.
 
Again, Ed, very helpful. That is the sort of information I was looking for. I hope the guy writes back to me soon and has some evidence of provenance on his Russian Model, but I'm not too hopeful.
I may try to buy the gun anyway, just because it is so darn interesting, and because a Second Model Russian in this condition doesn't show up in my world very often. It would be a departure from my normal collecting routine, but if the price is right, I may get tempted beyond my ability to resist! :D
But without the Earp provenance, it is just another old S&W.
 
Since there is no way to prove it, the seller cannot ask a premium for this inscription. Given that, try to buy the gun, and then do research later as others have said. We know the gun is a Russian model, which is a fine gun in of itself. I don't blame you for asking the forum, but I would instantly doubt such provenance, and if I was presented "evidence" I would look into that, and attempt to cast doubt on that too. If the guy said he had a signed letter, I would expect it to be fake, etc. Too many people will do dishonest things to establish a false provenance for a gun since the provenance can sometimes make the gun 500x to 1000x + more valuable instantly, when its documented and verifiable. Perhaps this inscription was someone attempting to take advantage of someone else way back when Wyatt Earp was still alive!
 
Good comments, Jim. And I agree with them completely.
Just to clarify, I don't yet even know if this guy wants to sell the gun. He certainly has said nothing that leads me to believe he's trying to push the thing off to make lots of money on the name inscription. He just wrote and sent pictures asking me about it. So I wanted to see what I could find out for him while also asking him if he had any provenance on the gun. If he's selling, I may try to buy it, depending on what he thinks he has to have for it.
Ignoring the Earp angle, what would you guys give for one of these? It appears to be in at least Antique Fine condition, maybe a little bit better.
 
Jack, Condition is everything when it comes to values for these older S&WS ( I'm assuming the pictures you received clearly indicate the gun is a Smith & Wesson and not a copy, as typically is found in Latin & South America. ) A minty 2nd Russian can get into the mid 4 figures + at a good auction. You say it's a civilian gun, so it could have some Russian inspector's stamps on some parts and was rejected by the Russians and cleaned up by the factory, with English stampings, for sale to a US distributor. Some have dealer added stamps from Schuyler, Hartley & Graham, or M.W.Robinson. Ed.
 
update

The man in Costa Rica with the Russian model has stopped replying to my emails, so I guess this is a dead end. I suspect he has no provenance to offer and isn't interested in selling the gun anyway. So I've moved on.
Thanks to all of you who corresponded with me on this matter. I did learn some interesting things from this thread. Thanks especially to Ed for his enlightening comments!
 
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