Russian ejector

[somniosus]

Hi Gents

I am restoring an early SW Russian in 44 Russian which is missing some parts including the ejector star and parts of the ejector cam mechanism that engages the rings on the ejector rod mechanism.

Unlike the other Russians I own, this one does not appear to use the spring loaded pivoting ejector lever which engages with the ejector cam as you break the pistol open to eject the cartridges. Instead there is small hole in the frame between the 2 lobes of the barrel pivot point which looks like some sort of a spring loaded pin would have sat in there like a piston to engage the ejector cam . I have not been able to find a diagram or schematic anywhere of this alternative mechanism for engaging the cam to provide the spring pressure which opposes and engages the ejector rod . If anyone has an exemplar or can share this information it would be greatly appreciated, I can likely fabricate it in my shop but an accurate dimension diagram or even a photo with scale would be a huge help. I have attached a shot of the frame with an adjacent frame from a regular Russian to show the difference in the pivoting ejector lever vs unknown mechanism. If anyone has these parts and would like to sell them that would be even better but that's likely Unobtainium in the periodic table of gun parts.

This pistols 7 inch barrel was marked:

Smith&Wesson Springfield. Mass. U.S.A. Pat July 16 60 Jan 17 Feb 17 July 11 65&Aug 24 69 Russian Model 1 ( 1 or perhaps +, cant tell as faint)

No expert but from what I can glean this would be the SW No 3 second model or "Old old Model Russian"?
In the photo you can barely see in the left hand frame the tiny hole versus the pivot ejector lever in the same location in the more normal frame on the right.

Any advice greatly appreciated.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Welcome to the Forum!

I take it you have a S&W Russian 2nd Model. This model used the same
ejector gear catch as the 2nd Model American. Here are a few pics of the
parts.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Here is a pic of the relationship between the catch and the gear.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[somniosus]

Thanks Webb! The supplied non correct ejector cam gear must have come out of a different model 3 -looks nothing like the one you shared so my fixer upper Russian was a bit of a Frankengun, of course when bought the ejector was non functional. I should be able to fab a reasonable facsimile of the cam and ejector lever. Your help has been invaluable.
thanks again
Chris

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Glad to help. What does your gear look like? Post a pic if you would.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[somniosus]

hi Webb; heres a shot of the ejector cam- looks different from the one you supplied and also has a little slot for a spring in there where presumably the nose of the ejector spring piston would dock, and 10 teeth vs 8 but both have a 100 thou interval between the tooth tips. It is 156 thou thick and there is also an odd little round slot at one end of the arc of gears. The inner race of the bearing is 220 as opposed to 225 on my other ejectors. Bit of an oddball and as is it does not operate the ejector properly. I will probably use your images to make a copy and try that. If you have an image of your base pin bushing for the cylinder and your ejector rod I could compare those and see if the other bits with the gun are also not quite right, Thanks again for your generous help.
best regards Chris

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

WOW! That is an interesting modification to your gear. I have no idea
what the purpose was but I wonder if there were other modified parts
that went with this modification. It sure appears this was an original gear
that was used.

In response to the smaller ID in your ejector gear bushing, it should be
only 1 or 2 thousandths larger than the barrel pivot to minimize looseness
and improve functionality.

There is a seller that is offering wire EDM made ejector gears for these.
I purchased one of them and they are NOT a drop-in part and you will
have to do some fitting. Mine was a couple thou. too think and the bushing
had the wrong ID. But it wasn't much trouble for me to make the adjustments
necessary to achieve a proper fit and function (I have a small garage machine
shop). In fact, the gear in my pics is one of those EDM replacements. They
are not cheap (at $199.95 each). I will send you a PM with a link (I don't think
the rules allow the posting links to active auctions or 'for sale' adds).

The cylinder rotates on the base pin which is a hollow axle which is screwed
securely into the barrel. This is an easily broken part if you try to remove it.
Be Careful.

I'll do my best to get you the pics you requested. Just give me some time.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Well, I can make a start. Here are some pics of the Base Pin. The damage
is typical of what can happen when removing the base pin from the barrel.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[somniosus]

Thanks Webb. I am also refurbing a second Russian with the more normal ejector cam configuration while searching for parts for the first one above and was able to fully dismantle it after a good soak in the red stuff without mangling that ejector rod housing but its delicate, I have another Russian that works fine but you cant get that thin walled thing to budge so I am leaving it alone. I often use the brake fluid/ acetone bath for up to a couple of weeks to really eat into and release badly seized parts and have seen a few miracles using it.
This second gun was jamming and failing to eject at all, the whole rig would get stuck as soon as you broke the frame and started to push the barrel down. It turned out the base pin/ejector housing was loose and rotating the groover that faces down around thee cam to jam the whole thing up. I fixed this by cleaning and realigning it then locking it in place with a sparing amount of blue loctite. I also had to remanufacture the spring loaded pin which actuates the ejector , the tip of which sits in the ejector lever slot and engages the little grooved gadget under there which was bent and worn so no longer working, this was fairly straightforward lathe work with drill stock and a replacement spring. And so now voila she ejects properly. I will attempt to attach a video but this may be more bandwidth than the system can absorb.
This gun also looks like the frame and barrel/cylinder are notmatched. I am a bit suspicious that the barrel and cylinder are modern, the blue is gorgeous and the cylinder has a nice gold inlay. On the underside of the barrel latch is a 4 digit code (illegible number) then 579. The cylinder caliber is 470. The sight is cast as part of the barrel, not seperate
There are no marks on the barrel and cylinder other than a tiny backward P on the underside of the ejector housing.
The barrel top marking is (cross) Smith&Wesson Springfield Mass USA PattJuly 10 60 Jan 17 Feb 17 July 11 65 & Aug 24 69 Russian Model (cross).
The frame and butt are more worn finish and the butt is marked with 1874 in a box and mismatched number 47747.

Also I am looking for the ejector star and a few other bits for the first Russian- if you can advise me on a good EDM manufacturing or other source for this as you mentioned above I would really appreciate it. This gun is in 44 Russian and the cylinder dimensions are length 1.395, width 1.655.

cheers Chris

 

[somniosus]

heres a short video of the ejector working
regards Chris

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Your latest Russian is a 3rd Model. These used a completely different extractor
system (although it is still a rack-n-pinion type). The letter "P" is not familiar to
me but I suspect the barrel may have been a Russian reject and S&W being a
thrifty Company, would sometimes re-use a rejected part on a domestic revolver
so long the reason for rejection didn't impair function or safety. Plus, it just may
have been a left over from the Russian Contract and not a reject at all.

I am a fan of Kroil but I have used a 50/50 mix of Acetone and ATF for soaking
large items.

The numbers you are encountering are called "assembly" or "fitting" numbers.
When a work order came down to the assembly dept. to fill an order, the assembler
would get a frame (previously machined and grips and serial number assigned). and
take it back to his workbench. Then he would collect the necessary parts (most are
already on his bench) and assemble the revolver. Sometimes, the first part tried
didn't fit exactly right so he tried another one until he gets the proper "fit" he wants.

Then the major parts are mark with a "fitting" number. This number was stamped
on the side of the frame near the heel under the right-hand grip panel, The back
of the cylinder, The underside of the barrel latch and the back of the barrel (in the
cutout for the latch). This number should match on the 4 major parts of the gun.
Here are some pics of a Model 3 American to show these assembly marks.






The barrel marking on yours are correct for a 3rd Model Russian. As a matter of
coincidence, I happen to own a 3rd Model Russian that is very close to yours.




Your cylinder does not match the correct dimensions for your revolver. It may be
a modern reproduction but it is way off. Typical cylinder dimensions are:

OD - 1.678",
Length - 1.420",
Chamber DIa. Rear - .460",
Chamber Dia. Front - .435".

These measurements will vary slightly from gun to gun but yours are too far off.

I don't know of any Wire EDM places but getting one is on my wish list.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[somniosus]

hi Webb-thanks again for the master class on these Russians.I own 4 of them, 2 are runners, one is coming back and one is a basket case but I never give up.Its the basket case that also has the unusual extractor cam and a few other missing bits and the odd sized cylinder as described above which holds a 44 Russian cartridge just fine. I did measure the cylinder length from front to back not including the protrusion at the end, with this you would be close to your tolerances for length but the difference of 20 thou in diameter is puzzling.
all the best Chris

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

The measurements I provided does not include the ratchet or any other
protuberances on the cylinder. I'm sure .44 Russian cartridges fit but they
are going to be a little loose. The .44 Russian has a base diameter of .457"
and if your chambers are .470", That is too loose and the cases may split
when fired.

Have you measured the barrel to cylinder gap? How about the gap between
the cylinder and the recoil shield?

Cheers!
Webb

 

[somniosus]

Thanks Webb!! Tried to fab the ejector prototype initially by hand in a softer metal, aluminum but fit and function is a problem,I took the lines off a reduced version of your photo but shes a bit irregular. Without an examplar to use a a template and exactly copy I think if its OK with you I will put up here your shot of the whole assembly and a plea to the listserv and gunsmiths to see if there are any of these bits out there people want to sell, I will pay top dollar. Or if some obscure fabricator out there is making these de novo thats another possibility.
best regards Chris