.44 Russian vs .44-40

[Oldmanwesson]

Here is a simple question: would a .44 Russian cartridge fit into a cylinder chambered for .44-40? Does the .44-40 cylinder have the "ridge" around the inside of the cylinder like the .44 Russian does? I was under the impression that the .44-40 was narrower than the .44 Russian and the latter would not go into a chamber made for a .44-40...
Thanks for your advice!

 

[Tom K]

I just tried it and a .44 Russian will drop into a .44-40 chamber, but it is not by any means a "fit".

 

[Oldmanwesson]

Thank you! That explains it. Looks like the .44-40 with its bottleneck would have a ridge in the cylinder, too.

 

[Kurusu]

Here is a simple question: would a .44 Russian cartridge fit into a cylinder chambered for .44-40? Does the .44-40 cylinder have the "ridge" around the inside of the cylinder like the .44 Russian does? I was under the impression that the .44-40 was narrower than the .44 Russian and the latter would not go into a chamber made for a .44-40...
Thanks for your advice!

The .44-40 is basically like a .45 Colt necked down to .44(.427). And way more potent than the .44 Russian.

 

[glowe]

The chambers of a mint 44 Winchester in a NM3 or 44 DA Frontier will actually show two very shallow constrictions. Foremost one will be for the bullet and the next one back will be for the bottleneck of the case. Worn or dark bore chambers will often make is hard to see those ridges.

 

[BMur]

44 Winchester "Rifle" vs 44 Russian "Pistol"

Really, when we compare the two cartridges they differ greatly in design and origin. The 44 Winchester is a "RIFLE" cartridge in origin. The 44 Russian is a "Pistol" cartridge in origin...Which presented several problems actually on the frontier.

The original concept was to combine a Rifle caliber/cartridge with a Pistol chambering to provide a "Frontier" solution to a cartridge availability issue. Did it work? Not as well as you might imagine. It made sense in a lot of ways but in reality it presented some significant problems if you weren't careful out there on the frontier.

See Photo> I personally do not enjoy reloading the 44WCF because it is poorly supported in reloading dies from having a bottleneck case. The result is often a dimpled/worthless result if you are not careful. The problem is solved with careful reloading with a bench mounted press and case preparation but did they have that out on the Frontier?
Chamber pressures are much higher in the rifle that would "Fire form" the case to a totally different result than the black powder pistol.

What they should have done was make a 44 Russian lever action Rifle....that would have actually been a better Idea!



Murph

 

[McShooty]

The 44 Russian, Special, and magnum are great to reload and shoot and that is where I stay. One thing I would be interested in is a comparison of accuracy of 44-40 and 44 Special in guns of equal quality. That could be arranged with S&W or Colt replica revolvers, or with a choice of replica lever actions. Anyone ever see any shooting info on this question?

 

[BMur]

Accuracy comparison

I don't think the 44WCF is even close to the 44 Russian in "Pistol" accuracy. Mainly due to the fact that the 44 Russian being "extremely" versatile. I've found more Target loads for the 44 Russian in the Black Powder ERA than any other pistol caliber and I keep finding more. It was the most accurate large caliber pistol round in the Black Powder ERA "period". This actually continued into the "early" Smokeless ERA with the hand ejectors. The round was "KING" for many years until the "Smokeless" 44 Special put it to rest.

The 44WCF was basically a novelty in a pistol. It served its purpose for a very short time when cartridge availability was a real issue.
The only real option with the 44WCF is a FULL Load since it has a Rifle/bottle neck case that doesn't allow for various loadings. "I Don't believe in the "FILL" concept. It's a "Hot Rod" solution that does not produce accurate pressure from one case to another.) Plus you "are" introducing an air gap between the powder and bullet. So, it is somewhat dangerous! Especially when you use food products?

The 44WCF also doesn't allow for a significant choice in bullets. So, basically in my opinion The 44 Russian would kick you know what at the range. "Hands Down".

The only real advantage the 44WCF has over the Russian is case volume? I mean it is "Powerful" with a full load of Black Powder. I've shot this load in both the Colt Frontier and Smith & Wesson Frontier many times because it's a kick in the pants. Big BOOM! But honestly, it's best place is in the rifle chamber.

Murph

 

[BMur]

44WCF chamber

The below photo's depict a Pre-1960 Ideal Sizing Die. I have earlier ones that date to pre-1900 but they are basically the same with earlier die stamps and tools, etc. Notice the photo of the die chamber? Remember that the Re-sizing die mimics the Pistol or rifle chamber of the same caliber. It is machined to size the case to perfectly fit into in this case the Smith & Wesson Frontier Revolver?

The taper is actually near invisible to the naked eye in a clean chamber/die. This is how the pistol chamber "should" also appear. The reason it doesn't is because of corrosion from being loaded and left loaded for some period of time. So corrosion is actually taking place from dis-similar metals that are in constant contact at the taper of the pistol chamber. Causing a corrosion ring to appear.

This is in no way the same as the 44 Russian chamber. Totally different animal. The 44 Russian "Pistol" cartridge has a "case stop" which is the exact location where the case stops and the throat begins.

With the 44WCF? That taper is where the case "Tapers" or bottle necks down to throat specs but it is not the same as the 44 Russian since the bullet diameter remains smaller than the case throat. So, that's also an issue with accuracy of the Rifle bullet in the Pistol cylinder. Not really a good idea.

I honestly think it's best said that this rifle caliber in a pistol is a novelty item. It's kind of a joke really. I honestly don't think that Smith & Wesson was too thrilled with the idea but collectors love the rarity of the caliber. I just like the big Black Powder "BOOM"!



Murph

 

[Kinman]

I like just about any kind of .44, I shoot them all, some through Italian repops just for kicks (no pun intended). I have a Uberti Repop of the Colt Bisley in 44-40 it is very pleasant to shoot with 30 grs of Old Eynesford 3F under a .060 wad and 200 gr .427 RNFP bullet. I shoot that same load in another Uberti repop of the Schofield, its fun but fouls much quicker than the Colt. It begins to foul at the cylinder gap which makes it more difficult for people to re-cock for next shot. I've found that by wiping the cylinder face after every other cylinder does a good job of eliminating the fouling problem. I also have re-pop Winchesters chambered in 44-40, one a model '73, the other a Lightning pump. They could benefit from more powder and probably .429 bullet, I keep things simple and have a load that works in everything quite well. Accuracy with 44-40 is minute of man or deer out to 50yds, I have not bothered to try out to 100, I have real rifles for those purposes. If you just like to shoot its pretty tough to beat the Italian repops, they do hold up well, although their case hardening is more paint than actually hardening.
I only have one firearm in .44 Russian, an original 1st Model .44 D.A. I tried Cowboy Smokeless loads in it originally and believe the sharper recoil does the piece no further good, it seems to work much better with black powder and is all that much more fun to shoot, cleaning is always something I consider part of the hobby and take the time to thoroughly clean all firearms after use. I recently got lazy and let some 44-40 cartridges set after firing black powder for more than a couple weeks and needed to give them an extra soak in vinegar to remove the staining, followed by a thorough tumble to get nice and clean.

 

[BMur]

Pistol chamber of a knock off?

Kinman,
Can you post a photo of the pistol chambers of your modern 44/40 knock off? I'm wondering what kind of milling they did. If you're hitting the target at 50 yards? They must have extended the chamber to include a throat that now equals bullet diameter. In other words, they must have introduced a case stop! That is not the case with antique pistols in 44 WCF.

Murph

 

[Oyeboteb]

.44 - 40 Chambers ~ 'S & W', "DA" ( not mine, image borrowed from a Gunbroker Listing some time ago...)

Hosted on Fotki

 

[Oyeboteb]

One can always run .44 Russian Bullets through a Sizing Die to reduce their diameter a little, for use in .44 - 40 Revolver, if one wants to use Target Bullets of the old styles or what-ever else.

The only .44 - 40 Revolvers I have so far, are a Merwin Hulbert, and a Colt New Service dating to 1899.

I plan to resize some of my favorite .44 Russian Bullets, for these.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Some while ago there was a minty perfect S & W "DA" Target Model chambered in .44 - 40.

I think it was starting bid or $3,400.00

I really wanted to get it, simply because it was so totally wacky and improbable!

I did not get it, and it disappeared from the listings after a while, so...someone got it, but not me.

Looking back, I kind of wish I had gotten it, just because it was so interesting and minty and in it's way, made no sense to even exist!

But, I guess someone 'Special Ordered' it, way back when, and they felt, that is what they wanted!

I doubt I will ever see another.

 

[cowboy4evr]

I , recently almost bought a Colt New Service in 44-40 to compliment my 1894 Marlin (early one , 3 digit serial #) in 44-40 . My Marlin as what I would call the perfect barrel . The groove diameter is .426 . I cast / size my 200 RNFP bullets .427 . The case necks only expand about 1/2 thousandths when fired . The throat is that snug .
Now , back to the Colt I almost bought . I had been wanting a New Service for quite some time . I was excited to find one in nice condition at my local gun shop . I felt I should have the cylinder throats and groove diameter of the barrel measured before committing . The owner has a local gun smith so we had him measure them . The owner of the shop called me back yesterday to tell me it had came back and it is " serviceable " . I thought , what does that mean ?
It turns out the cylinder throats are .427 and the groove diameter of the barrel is " .433 " , really ! I am not sure you could get a cast bullet that size in the case w/o crushing it . Needless to say , I'm glad I did a little research before buying it , I passed on it . Regards Paul

 

[Oyeboteb]

I , recently almost bought a Colt New Service in 44-40 to compliment my 1894 Marlin (early one , 3 digit serial #) in 44-40 . My Marlin as what I would call the perfect barrel . The groove diameter is .426 . I cast / size my 200 RNFP bullets .427 . The case necks only expand about 1/2 thousandths when fired . The throat is that snug .
Now , back to the Colt I almost bought . I had been wanting a New Service for quite some time . I was excited to find one in nice condition at my local gun shop . I felt I should have the cylinder throats and groove diameter of the barrel measured before committing . The owner has a local gun smith so we had him measure them . The owner of the shop called me back yesterday to tell me it had came back and it is " serviceable " . I thought , what does that mean ?
It turns out the cylinder throats are .427 and the groove diameter of the barrel is " .433 " , really ! I am not sure you could get a cast bullet that size in the case w/o crushing it . Needless to say , I'm glad I did a little research before buying it , I passed on it . Regards Paul

The old Colts can have some pretty goofy "Groove-to-Groove" sometimes!

.433 would of course not even chamber in .427 Cylinder Bores.

Ugh!

I have not measured my "New Service" yet, so cross your fingers for me that it is "Okay".

 

[Kinman]

Kinman,
Can you post a photo of the pistol chambers of your modern 44/40 knock off? I'm wondering what kind of milling they did. If you're hitting the target at 50 yards? They must have extended the chamber to include a throat that now equals bullet diameter. In other words, they must have introduced a case stop! That is not the case with antique pistols in 44 WCF.

Murph

Murph, These are the two repop cylinders, forgive the camera work. To clarify the only 44-40's I have that shoot to 50 yards are carbines, one '73 and the other a Lightning Pump.


Schofield


Bisley

 

[JohnBz]

.433 would of course not even chamber in .427 Cylinder Bores.

Ugh!

I have not measured my "New Service" yet, so cross your fingers for me that it is "Okay".[/QUOTE]


Just a reference, my 1891 Colt single action is .424 throat and .430 bore.
Those old 44/40 Colt measurements were often all over the place and therefore not very accurate.

 

[BMur]

Colt SAA

JohnBz,
I like the SAA's also. One thing though with the Antiques? They were often modified at some point. It's so easy to change barrels, cylinders, etc to even another caliber and if it's a later post say 1885 variation? There are no numbers on the cylinders. So the cylinder could have easily been replaced at some point. Possibilities with the Single Action Colts are endless. Often you will see matching numbers but when looking at the caliber on the trigger guard it might be stamped 44cal....but the gun is now a 45cal..?? How did that happen?? and it looks totally original.

I have a few SAA shooters that are put togethers. I've even changed calibers myself starting with a basic relic 'Antique" frame and assembling a great shooter.
I like shooting the .41 Long with Black Powder load so I have a few in that caliber that are Frankenguns but are a ton of fun to shoot and actually are extremely accurate.
I just can't pull the trigger on my minty antiques. I like brown or refinished guns for shooting. No harm done.


Murph

 

[glowe]

The bottom line is that a 44 Russian will fit in a 44 Frontier chamber. The cartridge rattles in the chamber due to the fact that the 44R brass is .014" smaller. Would it shoot through the smaller bore? Absolutely, but would raise the pressure by some unknown amount. The difference is only .006" and with relatively soft lead, should not be a problem for a 44R bullet to travel through the barrel of a 44 Frontier. Could the brass split at the base and blow back into the shooter's face, maybe.

As I took these images, I found one more issue with using 44R brass. Since the rim is smaller diameter, it can slip below the extractor star and fall back into the chamber.

 

[BMur]

Desperate times

A few years back someone posted a "Relic" condition Double Action 44 Smith & Wesson that was "found" loaded. I can't remember which caliber it was? 44 Russian or 44WCF? but what was very interesting was that the cylinder was still loaded with like 4 different types of 44 caliber rounds.....44 Bulldog, 44 Webley, 44 Russian, etc.....so desperate times called for desperate measures I guess.


Murph

 

[deadin]

Hey Murph,
You want a few more of these??
I have a number of them sitting on my reloading bench....

 

[BMur]

dimpled brass

LOL.... I rarely load for 44WCF just for that reason. Nothing like keeping evidence that you can't load right? I keep telling myself that I'll just cut the cases down below my screw up and make 45 shorts? That was like 25 years ago.



Murph

 

[glowe]

. . . You want a few more of these??
I have a number of them sitting on my reloading bench....

In my mind, the 44-40 case is very fragile and everyone has crushed their share of cases. I keep a bag of trimmed replacements at hand every time I reload. As you can see from the images I posted, that they can be reloaded following a few rules. First for me is to use a single stage press. My Rock Chucker will do a great job and I am willing to put in the extra time to do this caliber justice. Second, is to check and trim as needed, so every case being reloaded is exactly the same length.

Third and last is to be careful that once you set your bullet seating die/crimper lock it solidly in place. I placed a set screw collar on my Lee Carbide die set and lock it up when properly set. Even though I try to not move any adjustment on the die set, I always turn the bullet seater up a quarter turn and leave the die about 1/16" high and then seat the first bullet. If everything goes fine, I screw down the die and adjust the seating depth and start production. It is now a rare occurrence to crush a 44-40 case.

I shoot both revolver and rifle in this caliber and find that a solid crimp is needed for my leverguns, so pay attention to that detail as well.

 

[Kurusu]

One can always run .44 Russian Bullets through a Sizing Die to reduce their diameter a little, for use in .44 - 40 Revolver, if one wants to use Target Bullets of the old styles or what-ever else.

The only .44 - 40 Revolvers I have so far, are a Merwin Hulbert, and a Colt New Service dating to 1899.

I plan to resize some of my favorite .44 Russian Bullets, for these.

.429 lead bullets will go in the "supposed" .427 .44-40 without an issue. If using jacketed bullets then you can resize them to .425 witout a problem, but, slug your barrel first, I was not joking when I said "supposed", specially in a revolver, rifles and carbines generally have it right .

 

[Jim Watson]

There is a lot of variation in .44-40 brass, too.
My Winchester has a .428" reline so I really wanted to load .429" bullets for it and my 3rd Generation Colt .44 Special with .44-40 cylinder added. That worked in WW brass but RP brass was tight in the rifle chamber and would not go in my Colt at all. Turned out it was the RP brass, no bullet would let it chamber in the Colt.
Starline brass was in between; I could use it in lever action and revolver with a .428" bullet. Which are not common so I just went with the usual .427". Fine accuracy was not necessary for CAS.

 

[NewDeparture]

.44-40 has been one of my favorites calibers for a long time. I´ve a couple of New Service models in that caliber plus a M&H Pocket Army. I´ve also missed a chance of buying a rare .44 DA Frontier that was part of a Chilean Customs contract. I´m still regretting about that one.

I´ve almost never had a problem when resizing cases: IMHO all they need is to be lubed prior to sizing. I just roll them over a stamp pad sprayed with some RCBS Case lube.
That seems to work fine. I´m also gentle with the press handle when running them trough the sizing die. The only cases I´ve ruined were due to an excess of lube that ended up bulging them when resizing.

 

[BMur]

Reloading the 44WCF

I honestly appreciate the techniques posted regarding loading and shooting the 44WCF in a Pistol? I personally like the BIG BOOM as I mentioned with the Full load Black Powder?

However, I can't hit the broad side of a Barn with it so I've never honestly pursued loading for this caliber. I've shot it plenty of times with Black Powder in both the Smith & Wesson Frontier DA and Colt 78 Frontier but I can't shoot it accurately enough for my taste. If I can't at least hit a Baseball sized target at 25 yards with a Pistol? I'll opt for a caliber that I can.

The 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Mag would kick you know what at the range against any 44 WCF Pistol and that's at "ANY" distance. That's not me tooting my own horn. That's the gun and the caliber talking. So, I've never bothered with the round honestly. I've tried different loads, bullets, seating depths, etc and it's a joke compared to the Smith & Wesson calibers. Period.

I have gotten the round to pattern shoot in a pistol but it's never been dialed in from my perspective. I've never seen "anyone" compete with that caliber when I was target shooting. Never even heard of anyone trying to. So, I still consider it a novelty in a pistol and serves best in a medium rifle loading and platform at relatively short distances. To me it doesn't make sense to even try really since it's a "Rifle round" and was designed for a Rifle platform. It's not versatile in design or loading. That's just my experience with the round. If someone thinks that they can stand it up against a Smith & Wesson 44 revolver loading? I'd like to see it done.

Also, historically speaking, Smith & Wesson never manufactured any reloading kits for the Winchester calibers. They clearly referred to their tools for that purpose. I've never done the research on how Smith & Wesson felt about chambering their pistols for Winchester calibers but I honestly believe that they weren't thrilled about it because of the accuracy issue. Again, historically speaking, the reason they chambered the 44WCF in a pistol was due to cartridge availability issues on the Frontier. That's the root meaning for the term "Frontier" revolver. Same caliber for both your rifle and pistol. It was a short lived idea.

****One last point of historical reference? I'd like to see just one reference for a "TARGET SHOOTER" of the Antique era that used a 44WCF pistol to target shoot with? There isn't one because they would have been laughed off the range by folks like IRA Payne that was using either the 44 Russian or 38-44 New Model 3 Target gun. NO such animal as a 44WCF target gun. Not in the Antique era anyway...Now if someone brings up a modern heavily modified 44WCF target pistol.........That's cheating....


Murph

 

[deadin]

I´ve almost never had a problem when resizing cases:

I don't have any problems with resizing... it's the seating and crimping the bullet where I run afoul....

 

[BMur]

44WCF solution

The easiest solution is to use heeled bullets with a taper at the heel and just a little bullet lube on the skirt. Then follow up with a collet type crimping die that LEE sells pretty cheap. These crimping dies put zero stress on the case. I have these collet crimpers for every other pistol caliber but the 44wcf just because I don't load for it a lot but that would solve the dimpled case issues. Then the only issue becomes contaminating the powder load since you put some lube on the bullet skirt. I'd just make sure that you store them bullet down and you should be ok. I'd imagine that the old field loaders would dimple a lot of cases though. No way to stop it out in the brush.




Murph