44 spl reload groups fly high

[Waxster60]

So, took a new-to-me model 29-2 to the range today for the first time. Sweet shooter!

First ran some 44 spl through it from 15 yards. First 6 shot group of Blazer 200gr factory ammo landed at the top of the center ring, all bullet holes touching. Off to a good start.

Next 6 shot group was with 44 spl reloads using commercial 240g cast lead semi-wadcutter bullets, Winchester large pistol primers, 6.5g Unique powder, 1.495" C.O.A.L. This group of 6 shots also had all holes touching, but was 2 inches higher on the target than the first. Both groups were perfectly centered and shot from rest while sitting. I do not own a chrono, so cannot provide that information.

Thoughts on why that second group using reloads ran high? Never had this issue with reloads fired from any of many pistols over the years. BTW, this is my first go at revolver reloading. Thanks for your thoughts and guidance.

 

[FlyFish]

There may well be other factors involved, but the simplest explanation is that the muzzle velocity of the 200-gr factory ammo is higher than your 240-gr reloads, so the heavier bullet spends more time in the barrel, and the recoil has raised the muzzle higher by the time the bullet exits.

 

[rockquarry]

My 29s and 24s all shoot high with heavy bullets, even with the rear sight cranked all the way down. I don't load .44 Magnum anymore, just .44 Special. I use 200 grain cast bullets and they shoot lower than the heavy ones. You can change out the rear sight blade and this may alleviate the problem if you choose to shoot heavy bullets.

Additionally, and this will vary a bit from shooter to shooter, but shooting Bullseye style (one handed) will often cause the bullets to impact higher than if you're holding the revolver with both hands.

 

[Waxster60]

Great thought - thanks! On the other hand, I was thinking the opposite - that the heavier bullet should drop more quickly and group lower than the lighter commercial rounds. Just want to be sure I'm not doing something wrong in the reloading process. If the rise of the groups is consistent with this load, it will be easy enough to adjust my aim point.

 

[rockquarry]

Great thought - thanks! On the other hand, I was thinking the opposite - that the heavier bullet should drop more quickly and group lower than the lighter commercial rounds. Just want to be sure I'm not doing something wrong in the reloading process. If the rise of the groups is consistent with this load, it will be easy enough to adjust my aim point.

If you have plenty of sight adjustment left, your problem is solved. If not, and you want to use heavy bullets, speed them up (if you can safely do that with your load) and the point of impact will be lowered.

 

[gregintenn]

Handguns are azz backwards from rifles. Speed up the projectile in a handgun and your point of impact will be lower. All I can figure is is gets out of the barrel quicker and isn't affected as much by muzzle rise.


Drop isn't much of a factor at normal handgun range.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Different weight bullets loaded with different (one which is unknown) powders have different points of impact...

How could it realistically be anyway else?

If you reload two different weight bullets with the exact same powder in the exact same amount would you not expect the same: different points of impact? As to why the heavier bullet hit higher at 15 yards I would opine that distance is short enough (and velocity high enough?) that the anticipated drop has yet to begin...?

Cheers!

P.S. One could certainly develop two loads using the same powders for two different weight bullets with closer points of impact: the fact that the OP's reloads grouped with all "holes touching" is a pretty good indication of no problems with that specific load.

 

[Waxster60]

Different weight bullets loaded with different (one which is unknown) powders have different points of impact...

How could it realistically be anyway else?

If you reload two different weight bullets with the exact same powder in the exact same amount would you not expect the same: different points of impact? As to why the heavier bullet hit higher at 15 yards I would opine that distance is short enough (and velocity high enough?) that the anticipated drop has yet to begin...?

Cheers!

P.S. One could certainly develop two loads using the same powders for two different weight bullets with closer points of impact: the fact that the OP's reloads grouped with all "holes touching" is a pretty good indication of no problems with that specific load.

Thanks. Understanding and anticipating different poi with the different rounds is one thing. Trying to explain the higher POI from a heavier bullet was something I could not get my head around from my rifle shooting experience. Really appreciate these explanations.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Blazer ammo is usually pretty slow but your hand loads must be even slower.........

no biggy, just be glad that they are center line of target and no "Kentucky windage" is needed, which is a really good thing.

A little more or less front sight will make those two loads shoot at the same POA.

Have fun.

 

[k22fan]

You've been given the correct answer repeatedly. I can only add that the longer the barrel the greater the vertical difference in impact will be. My first 29-2 was an 8 3/8". I bought a spare rear sight and filed its blade lower for use with slow .44 Special velocity loads. If you file your rear sight blade then I'd expect trouble sighting in standard magnum loads.

BTW, before buying my first .38 Special I had a young lady smiling while firing my 29-2 with 180 grain lead bullets at 700-750 fps. Starting a new shooter with standard magnum loads would have been mean.

 

[Scharfschuetzer]

I won't try and kick a horse when it's down, but my two cents to answer your question.

Think of the web of your shooting hand as a pivot point. The barrel is above that, so the stronger the push (i.e. 240 v. 200 grains at similar velocities) the greater the flip around that pivot point and thus the higher POI.

I always taught my soldiers and LEOs to hold the revolver or pistol as high up on the grip as possible in order to reduce the flip on the pivot point for faster repeat shots. A high as possible grip (if you're not already doing so) may reduce the dispersion between POIs of the the different weight bullets.

The high grip also helps a lot with trigger pull for the average size hand.

 

[BigBill]

I grip the handgun with my right hand, if I’m using two hands my left hand goes over my right hands fingers and I pull the handgun down.

I only shoot 25 yds using the sights, nothing shorter. After some range time I may go out to 100 yds depending on what handgun I’m shooting.
I shoot leadcast at paper but I do shoot some jacketed after the shoot is over. This keeps the feel of the more powerful magnum recoil.
At 25 yds the accuracy is quite different.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I grip the handgun with my right hand, if I’m using two hands my left hand goes over my right hands fingers and I pull the handgun down.

I only shoot 25 yds using the sights, nothing shorter. After some range time I may go out to 100 yds depending on what handgun I’m shooting.
I shoot leadcast at paper but I do shoot some jacketed after the shoot is over. This keeps the feel of the more powerful magnum recoil.
At 25 yds the accuracy is quite different.

I, too, shoot at various distances for practice. Typically 50 feet indoors at targets for accuracy, but at 7 to 10 yards as a practical self defense distance.

Anything longer (with a handgun, anyway?) would for me be serious prep for hunting. I don't envision me shooting at anyone much beyond 20 feet, unless they were shooting at me...

When my eyes were much younger I could (and would) shoot at longer distances: now my 70 year-old vision makes that an almost futile exercise in frustration! I have to take my damn glasses off to use the binoculars to see if I'm even on the paper. Thank God for scopes and Red Dots!

Cheers!

 

[6string]

The issue is 240 gr vs. 200 gr bullets using 44 Spl loads.
I have encountered this consistently with all M29 revolvers.
Adjust your sights.

Hint: use an automotive feeler gauge between the bottom of the rear sight and the frame cut just above the hammer spur to measure the actual elevation adjustment.
I have found a difference of 0.020" is rear sight setting will do the job when going between 240 and 200 gr bullets at the 25 yd line.

 

[jake1945]

How you grip a handgun affects point of impact on target too.

 

[gwpercle]

In revolver dynamics:
Heavier and or slower bullets strike higher on the target .
Heavy fast moving (magnum velocity) bullets strike lower on the target ,
The farther you are away from your target the lower the bullet will drop.

Pick a load and a distance ... and adjust the pistols sights for it .

Another option is hold dead on (adjust sights ) for magnum loads and use a 6-o'clock hold for the slower special loads . The lower hold will compensate for the bullet that strikes higher .

Gary

 

[BigBill]

I personally would keep it sighted in for the 44 mag, then practice Kentucky windage to learn the accuracy with the 44 special.

 

[mtgianni]

Be concerned if it is 2" high at 50 yards, not at 15.

 

[Forrest r]

I'm a huge fan of the 44cal's & carry a snubnose 44spl (2 1/2" bbl'd carter arms bulldog) since the 80's. I do different test loads every now and then & I used these 2 bullets in my last testing 1 month ago.

The red bullet is a 245gr keith style swc hp and the green bullet is a 200gr type III wc. I used 8.0gr of power pistol for both bullets/test loads. Ya, same powder/same powder weight for a 245gr & 200gr bullet. I ran 10 rounds of each load over a chronograph and then put 5 shots of each load on paper. It ain't pretty but I took 10 to 15 seconds per target to shoot 5 shots at the 3 1/4" black bull @ 25ft. I was aiming at the bottom of the smaller white inner circle/target. The target on the right side was the test target.

Both loads are good enough for my needs and interestingly enough both loads were within 5fps of each other. Even though both bullets were being pushed by the same 8.0gr of power pistol, the lighter 200gr bullet was actually 5fps faster.

If you look at the top picture you can clearly see that the 245gr bullet is longer and will seat deeper in the case. It is also heavier and should of delivered a higher velocity then the 200gr bullet. The reality of it is that that that 200gr wc has an extremely small bottom drive band/bullet base. This causes it to seal the cylinders and bbl faster making it more efficient.

As you can see they both had pretty much within reason the same high/low impact. This is because they both had the same velocity which means, the same dwell time (time the bullet spends in the bbl). These are not hot loads by any means which takes any recoil out of play.

What you are experiencing is actually extremely common with 357's & 44mag's. This 4" bbl'd 29 was like that & was at it's best with loads in the 1100fps to 1200fps range. Which were hot 44spl's or middle of the road 44mag reloads. Which was fine by me, made for a pleasant day at the range.

They said no math!!!!

Measure the distance between the sights
Measure the distance to the target (in inches)
Measure the distance you were off from your point of aim

Example:
The distance between my front and rear sight is 7"
The distance I was shooting my target was 50ft (600")
The bullet was hitting 5" higher then my point of aim

7" x (5"/600")
5"/600 ='s .0083"
7" x .0083" ='s .058"

This is telling me I have to lower my rear sight .058" to get the bullet to hit my poa @ 50ft with that load.

If a second load was hitting 2"'s high (7") then the 5" high load then I'd have to lower the rear sight .082" for that 7" high load to have the bullet impact my poa.

Good luck

 

[Jellybean]

Can anyone name or cite a reference that explains the science behind the "hang time" or "dwell time" theory?