.45 acp/auto rim and plated bullets

[shil]

I see dire warnings about over-crimping plated bullets. How much taper-crimp should be applied to these bullets before the danger point is reached? I just want enough crimp to prevent the bullets from creeping forward under recoil in a .45acp revolver, specifically a Model 25-2.

 

[Model19man]

I see dire warnings about over-crimping plated bullets. How much taper-crimp should be applied to these bullets before the danger point is reached? I just want enough crimp to prevent the bullets from creeping forward under recoil in a .45acp revolver, specifically a Model 25-2.

If you use 45 Auto Rim it doesn't really matter because the cartridge uses the rim to fix the cartridge OAL. I would say that you need to use the same crimp every time so that the bullet goes in the same place every time.

If you are loading for a Model 25-2 or 625-2 the revolver uses moon clips for the same thing - you don't have to worry about it. You can use as much as you need but really you said it - the crimp just needs to be heavy enough to keep the bullets from creeping forward during recoil. A little more sure won't hurt.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

If you properly expand the case a very small taper crimps should suffice. I use the LEE Factory Crimp Die for most handgun loads and don't experience any bullet creep.

Most crimping problems are due to over expansion to begin with IM(very)HO...?

Cheers!

 

[.38SuperMan]

I use Berry's plated bullets in 45 acp, 38 special, 380 and 9mm and have never had an issue with over crimp. I generally load pretty mild loads but will seat and crimp a dummy round then pull the bullet and inspect the ring in the plating caused by the crimp. Usually I crimp to the point of a visible but not deep impression in the plating. It would be obvious if you compromise the bullet with excessive crimping. I understand over crimping can cause the core to separate from the plating.

I have used many thousand Berry's and prior to that used many thousand Ranier and never had any issues.

 

[robertrwalsh]

I have likewise shot a LOT of plated bullets out of .45ACP revolvers. I do not shoot rhino rollers so it isn't a big issue for me. Like the post above I understand the problem could lead to core separation. It is I suppose possible that this would leave a good size chunk of jacket in the bore, which could be a very bad thing. You don't want to slice thru the plating down to the lead core.

 

[Alk8944]

Over crimping plated bullets is a "problem" that is highly overrated. So is the limitation to 1,200 FPS! After being concerned about these things for many years shooting Berry bullets I decided to just see what would happen. This is what I did: These were .357 Magnum loads.

This was all at the same time for worst case scenario! I loaded the bullets with a full charge, 16+ grains of H110/296 that is supposed to develop ca. 1,600 FPS, well over the Berry 1,200 limit. Second I crimped the loaded rounds to the maximum possible with the Lee CFC die. This was so severe that I could feel and feel when the copper plating was cut through! The die was adjusted so the shell holder bottomed out hard on the die, it couldn't get any more crimp. I then fired these through a 6 1/2" Model 27, and they chronographed just under 1,600 FPS. These were shot from rest at 100 yards.

Out of the 20 rounds so loaded only a few showed any evidence of jacket separation on the target, only 3 or 4, showed that the jacket had formed "petals" that showed on the target. Accuracy was about what would be expected for this distance, under 6".

Copper is extremely ductile. My conclusion from this test, it is extremely unlikely the plating will be damaged by a moderate crimp. Quit worrying about it!

 

[gwpercle]

I see dire warnings about over-crimping plated bullets. How much taper-crimp should be applied to these bullets before the danger point is reached? I just want enough crimp to prevent the bullets from creeping forward under recoil in a .45acp revolver, specifically a Model 25-2.

Roll crimping is the crimp that can cut ... a cut plated bullet is NOT dangerous ... a lot of that You-Tube -Expert advice is Horse Pucky .
Taper crimp untill the bullet is held firmly ... to test the crimp load 6 shoot 5 and inspect #6 . If it holds you good .
I have 2 - 45 acp revolvers and the taper crimp holds just fine .
Something I can attest to is ... plated bullets aren't the most accurate ... my cast bullets always do better in the accuracy dept.
Gary

 

[mmande]

When John Giles developed the taper crimp die, he said the end of the case mouth on .45 ACP should be crimped to .460 - .465 diameter.
Read whatever you want into that.
Mike

 

[shil]

Thanks, Everyone!

 

[mikld]

IMO; Taper crimping semi-auto handloads is to remove any flare, as neck tension holds the bullet in place. I have not "crimped" any semi-auto handloads (6 different calibers) in many years. Just deflare enough for good plunk testing...

 

[cololab]

IMO; Taper crimping semi-auto handloads is to remove any flare, as neck tension holds the bullet in place. I have not "crimped" any semi-auto handloads (6 different calibers) in many years. Just deflare enough for good plunk testing...

This has worked flawlessly for me for decades.

 

[WR Moore]

If you're using quality plated bullets, you have to crank on stupid taper crimp to cut through the plating. If I pull Berry plated bullets, I can see a slight groove in the bullet from the edge of the case mouth (Except for .45 loaded on my ancient Dillon, I seat and crimp with the same die.) Never had any issues, although I'm not as brave as Alk8944 velocity wise.

 

[Tex1001]

I use the LEE Factory Crimp Die for most handgun loads and don't experience any bullet creep.

The LEE collet crimp dies have solved every crimp problem I have
ever had with a revolver round or a bottleneck cartridge.
I wish they had been around 40 years ago.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Apply a taper crimp that measures .002" smaller at the case mouth than just below it whether it's 45ACP or 45AR, jacketed or plated bullets.

Your reloading die's expander plug diameter has a bigger affect on holding the bullet in place (bullet-case tension), or not, than a taper crimp does. If its diameter is too large all the taper crimp in the world won't fix the problem.

I wouldn't expect any standard power 45ACP round in an all steel large frame revolver would have jump crimp issue with properly loaded handloads. Hot loads in a lightweight revolver is a different story.

Since I generally like to shoot 45ACPs in my revolvers without moonclips the big plus for me in 45AR cases is to use bullets with a cannelure/crimp groove & give my hot loads a nice roll crimp.

.



.

 

[StrawHat]

For years I used 45 Super data for several of my ACP revolvers. A bit of taper crimp, just enough to remove the flare, was all I needed. Neck tension held the bullet well. Not sure about plated bullets, never used them.

Kevin

 

[David Sinko]

I had an interesting experience with Frontier plated bullets, brand new .38 Super Starline brass and the 8 shot .38 Super 627-4 revolver. I was shooting an ICORE match and getting two perfectly round holes on the cardboard for every one shot fired. This was perplexing to the staff until one of the shooters deduced that the crimp applied to the sharp edges of the new brass was cutting through the plating and causing it to separate from the lead bullet. Somehow the plating from the back end of the bullet was still being stabilized enough to cut round holes in the cardboard. It sounds ridiculous but I can't think of any other explanation. I don't think Frontier plated bullets exist anymore. Maybe they were substandard quality?

 

[Chuck Edwards]

I haven't loaded plated bullets in .45 ACP. What has worked for me (and others) in .38 Special is to seat the bullet slightly deeper and apply a light roll crimp over the ogive, not enough to cut into the plating but just enough to keep the bullet from moving forward. You may want to reduce the powder charge a bit due to the deeper seating.

 

[BB57]

Several issues to discuss here:

- Semi-auto rimless pistol cartridges like the .45 ACP, 9mm Luger, .380 ACP, etc headspace on the case mouth and should be taper crimped rather than roll crimped;

- Taper crimps won't damage a plated jacket;

- Roll crimps are most often used on rimmed revolver rounds like the .357 Magnum, etc. and serve to prevent the bullet from backing out of the case under recoil;

- Excessive roll crimping can cut a plated bullet jacket as the plating is comparatively thin; but

- It doesn't matter as the copper jacket on a plated bullet is plated to the lead core, it's literally a bonded bullet and a cut in the jacket won't cause jacket separation.

——

Velocity can be an issue but not at usual handgun velocities. The only isuses I have had with jacket separation and h plated bullets were with heavy plated bullets intended for the .30-30. I started getting jacket separations at around 1800 fps, in one of my barrels, evidenced by a sudden loss of accuracy and if tested on a target at short range, fragments punching through a paper target.

 

[BB57]

I haven't loaded plated bullets in .45 ACP. What has worked for me (and others) in .38 Special is to seat the bullet slightly deeper and apply a light roll crimp over the ogive, not enough to cut into the plating but just enough to keep the bullet from moving forward. You may want to reduce the powder charge a bit due to the deeper seating.

That will work fine on a .38 Special as it headspaces on the rim. However a rimless round like the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth.

If you roll that mouth over with a roll crimp you've now created excessive head space. In most cases the cartridge is now held back against the firing pin strike by the extractor gripping the rim. which is now what is effectively providing the head space, and it's still going to be excessive.

 

[Tanners Owner]

Same happened to me with my 625 at an IDPA match, using extreme bullets. I adjusted my crimp, no more problems. Was fun until I shot a limited stage :-(

I had an interesting experience with Frontier plated bullets, brand new .38 Super Starline brass and the 8 shot .38 Super 627-4 revolver. I was shooting an ICORE match and getting two perfectly round holes on the cardboard for every one shot fired. This was perplexing to the staff until one of the shooters deduced that the crimp applied to the sharp edges of the new brass was cutting through the plating and causing it to separate from the lead bullet. Somehow the plating from the back end of the bullet was still being stabilized enough to cut round holes in the cardboard. It sounds ridiculous but I can't think of any other explanation. I don't think Frontier plated bullets exist anymore. Maybe they were substandard quality?

 

[David Sinko]

I never had a problem with plating separation in any of my 625s or any other .45 ACP. I still have some plated 300 gr. FP bullets loaded into the .44 Magnum. I'm pretty sure they are Frontier but I loaded them a long time ago and nobody seems to make a plated 300 gr. bullet for the .44 Magnum anymore. There was no cannelure on the bullet and I used a light roll crimp. Velocity is fairly moderate and they are very accurate. I killed a deer with one last year in the Rossi 92 and got complete penetration on a broadside shot. Over the years I've had some very good luck with plated bullets and some very bad luck. You never know until you try.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The last time that I saw a manual actually list a crimp on a 9mm pistol
125 Gr soft point bullet, dia, .355 was in my old "Atomic" Speer #8,
where the bullet, actually had a Heavy, Factory crimp grove on it's bullet.

A heavy crimp on a "Pistol" case rim, may cause problems in the chamber area,
if the case, by passes, the factory drilling, spec's in the chamber.

Lots of "Dummy" cases in crimp pressures, are needed, in most trials,
to give 100% slide & firing pin settings, for your pistol.

 

[Chuck Edwards]

That will work fine on a .38 Special as it headspaces on the rim. However a rimless round like the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth.

If you roll that mouth over with a roll crimp you've now created excessive head space. In most cases the cartridge is now held back against the firing pin strike by the extractor gripping the rim. which is now what is effectively providing the head space, and it's still going to be excessive.

In an autoloader, you're correct. In a revolver using AR brass or moon clips, roll crimps are fine since the round isn't headspacing on the case mouth. My M22-4 subsists on a diet of coated 225-grain RNFPs in .45 ACP brass with the case mouths crimped into the crimp grooves, loaded into full moon clips.

 

[StrawHat]

With proper neck tension, merely tapering the flare out of the case will hold the bullet securely.

A crimp, especially anything beyond a light taper crimp, merely shortens case life.

Kevin

 

[smoothshooter]

I see dire warnings about over-crimping plated bullets. How much taper-crimp should be applied to these bullets before the danger point is reached? I just want enough crimp to prevent the bullets from creeping forward under recoil in a .45acp revolver, specifically a Model 25-2.

Taper crimping will not cause any problems.
Roll crimping, by it's nature, turns the sharp edge into the bullet's plating, and increases the remote possibility of bullet plating being penetrated by the brass case mouth.