.45 ACP C&L RE-VISITED

[crazyphil]

Way back in 1953 we were checked out with M3A1 SMGs
aka "grease guns" to defend our compound. But the Air
Police, guarding the gate, carried 1911A1s.

Besides the high barbwire fence, there was always an AP
on duty at the gate. When they would change shifts, there
was some kind of ceremony where the outgoing would unload
his .45 ACP and the incoming would load his.

I noticed several holes in the tin roof of the guard shack,
obviously made by NDs. I wondered why?

Condition 3 is an empty chamber with hammer down.
Condition 2 is one round in the chamber with hammer down.
Condition 1 is a loaded mag, one in chamber, hammer cocked
and thumb safety on. (aka cocked and locked)

My guess is they were carrying in condition 2, and had a little
"slip" as they let the hammer down.

Or, what if they were using condition 1.
With hammer cocked and thumb safety dis-engaged.
If they inserted the mag, and flipped the slide release,
slamming into battery, could that cause the ND?

I think they were aware of the potential ND because
they always had the gun pointed up when making it
ready to carry. As far as I know no one got hurt,
except the roof.

Any thoughts?

 

[OKFC05]

Condition 2 is unsafe in a 1911, and should never be used. I don't know what the sky cops were doing pointing pistols up to load in 1953; I joined in 1966, and clearing barrels were required equipment. Nevertheless, most of the guard shacks had holes in them from "unauthorized weapon handling."
On my first base (TAC with SAC tenant), we finance troops had to be our own guards moving money, and were issued revolver M15 and MI Carbines.


My first guess as to how your sky cops were shooting holes in the roof is they inserted the mag and released the slide catch with their finger on the trigger. Something like a broken firing pin or sear malfunction would be needed to get a slam fire without puling the trigger, IMHO.

 

[Ivan the Butcher]

If the sear and disconnector are worn or not fitted right (out of spec.), the hammer can fall without the grip safety being depressed. Simple part replacement can fix that in about 5 minutes!

When I was building 1911's (back in the 80's) I had a couple pistols have this problem, so I started only using Colt sears and disconnectors. Today I think I would use Wilson Combat parts.

Ivan

 

[crazyphil]

Thanks OKFCO5 Your first guess is a good possibility.

Thank you Ivan, that is good stuff to know.

 

[jimmyj]

In a long ago era:
The standard carry for the M1911 was "Condition 3" : empty chamber,
hammer down, loaded magazine with five rounds.

Sentry/guard change was drawing weapon, point weapon upward, drop magazine, lock slide back. The relief took weapon, checked chamber, lowered slide, lowered hammer, insert magazine, holstered weapon.

*** occasionally the steps would get mixed up with the loaded magazine being inserted, slide lowered, weapon holstered, and the trigger pulled to lower the hammer---"POW"-the bottom of the GI holster peeled back and a bullet hole in the wood floor. If you had a good friend in the armory, a call to him and he would bring a replacement holster and a single .45acp FMJ. THEN paper work, a visit from the CPO, then a date with the section officer to deliver your butt for a kicking/chewing. Then KP for a while. Come pay day a smart person would see that the CPO glass did not become empty at the EM club.

 

[JayCeeNC]

In the early 1970's I saw sleepy MP's just off midnight shift and in a hurry to get to breakfast get the "clearing" steps backwards with their Condition 3 Colt .45's...rack slide, remove magazine, point muzzle into clearing barrel and....BANG.
A few years ago I saw GI's do the same thing with their M4 carbines and Beretta M9's in Afghanistan.
GI's don't change much...

 

[crazyphil]

Stuff can happen Jimmy. And if it can happen, it will happen.

 

[crazyphil]

JayCeeNC I wonder if dislexia could cause some of those backwards
procedures? I have a daughter who is dislexic and I find quite a few
things around the household that were put back together backwards.

 

[JayCeeNC]

Phil, I believe it was a combination of haste and unfamiliarity.
Proper procedure--remove mag, cycle action, pull trigger on an empty chamber while pointing into the clearing barrel.
Get in a hurry, or have your mind on something else, or it's raining and the clearing barrel is outside and you're trying to get inside quickly and it's easy to get the steps out of order, i.e., cycle action, remove mag, drop hammer and BANG.
I've found that if there's a 50% chance a GI can do something improperly, he'll do it improperly about 66% of the time.

 

[Frank46]

Saw a gunner's mate drop the mag and rack the slide back on an empty chamber on a 1911A1, then he proceeded to install a fully loaded mag, let the slide run home and promptly put a 230 grain bullet in the heavily insulated ships armory which was one deck above our engine room. After reading this thread wondered how many of those 230 grain bullets did they find after they removed the insulation when they scrapped my carrier?. More than one I supposed. Frank

 

[Faulkner]

Reading these posts I can see a hint of justification why law enforcement these days generally rejects the use of 1911's for uniform carry.

 

[CCW1911]

Reading these posts I can see a hint of justification why law enforcement these days generally rejects the use of 1911's for uniform carry.

By that thinking LE wouldn't have any shotguns either. I can't even remember all the investigations of buckshot holes in squad roofs and the shift change area I got to do. One I do remember well happened in the court house parking lot while a young officer was transporting a prisoner to court, shotgun went off by itself in the rack ventilating the squads roof. Really strange...

 

[old tanker]

The vestibule of the Post Finance Office at Fort Campbell had holes in the ceiling where a couple of generations of payroll officers got the clearing procedure backwards, i.e., they racked the slide before dropping the magazine. (Another reason DoD mandated Direct Deposit)

 

[jimmyj]

By that thinking LE wouldn't have any shotguns either. I can't even remember all the investigations of buckshot holes in squad roofs and the shift change area I got to do. One I do remember well happened in the court house parking lot while a young officer was transporting a prisoner to court, shotgun went off by itself in the rack ventilating the squads roof. Really strange...

As a supervisor I was a "Happy Camper" when the Remington 870 replaced the Winchester Model 97s, 12s, and Ithaca Model 37s (these models did not have a disconnector and could be slam fired) Oh, I forgot the Remington Model 10 that put a hole though a wall and glass window

 

[WI357SIG]

Ban on Military Pistol Sought

"Ban on Military Pistol Sought
Kitsap County Coroner A.H. Segerquist said today he will seek to have the .45 caliber automatic pistol outlawed as a military weapon, even if he has to carry the fight to President Eisenhower.
In the past five months, Segerquist said, two servicemen have been killed and one has been injured seriously by .45's while on duty in the 13th Naval Dsitrict."

The Seattle Times Friday, November 18, 1955