45 ACP match ammo recipe assistance?

[lrrifleman]

Hello! Yesterday, I was at a local club shooting a 2700 match, and started to contemplate my chosen (current) recipe. I use my own cast 200gr SWC, a CCI large pistol primer, and WW231. Using my RCBS Cast Bullet Manual, I had chosen a charge of 4.8gr (halfway between the recommended charges). At 50 yards, I seemed to be shooting patterns, at 25 yards I had the suggestion of groups.

As a qualification, I have four sets of variables: gun, ammo, my health, and my memory of pre-disability capabilities. I addressed the pistol first: replacing the long trigger with a short trigger to reduce "pushing" shots to the left. I am now addressing the ammo: my shooting arm was covered in powder residue, and I seemed to be fighting excessive recoil. [One other competitor mentioned they have used 3.9-4.0 Bullseye with the 200gr cast SWC for over 40 years, using a 14# recoil spring.] My health is the least addressable issue: diabetes (vision), hypothyroidism (contributing to hand shakes), and muscular-skeletal injuries - the best I can do is take my meds and try to overcome my other issues. My memory of what I could do is (at times) overshadowing my current performance, but I am tempering that!

My preferred powder for 45ACP is WW231, but I can resort to Bullseye if need be. My manual suggests a powder range of 4.5gr-5.0gr of 231 for the 200gr SWC. I know that different barrels like different bullets/charges, I have seen this too many years shooting high power rifles in competition.

My question is, what is the Forum's experience with lower charges of 231 and Bullseye with the 200gr SWC?

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO your charge is too light. I charge 5.5gr W231 under that bullet but you should try 5.0gr, 5.2gr first. W231 is a ball powder which performs better up near the top of the pressure curve. All that powder on your arm will go away @5.2gr or higher. Accuracy will also improve greatly.

Lyman goes as high as 6.0gr and Hodgdon goes to 5.9gr. My 5.5gr charge works very well without going close to the max. Your charge is way too light.

 

[505Gibbs]

When I bought my Ed Brown over 20 yrs ago their recommendation for a 200g SWC was 5.6g of 231. FWIW

 

[AJ]

I use Bullseye 3.5 grains with a 200 grain SWC with CCI Large Pistol Primers. In my pistols this load has worked well for over 30 years.

 

[Bob L]

I agree with AJ. I have used 3.5 grains of Bullseye with 200 gr SWC since I started shooting Bullseye matches many moons ago and never had a complaint.

 

[lrrifleman]

@AJ & Bob L,

With the 3.5gr charge of BE, how is the grouping of this load at 50 yards?

Also, what weight recoil spring are you using with this lighter charge?

Thanks!

 

[AJ]

@AJ & Bob L,

With the 3.5gr charge of BE, how is the grouping of this load at 50 yards?

Also, what weight recoil spring are you using with this lighter charge?

Thanks!

lrrifleman,

Sorry, but I have not shot at 50 yards in years. When I did this load grouped well IIRC. Was using Bar-Sto barreled match grade pistols back then with a 14 pound spring. Nowadays I use a Colt Series 70 Gold Cup National Match manufactured in 1976. I don't shoot match any more, but if I do my part the rounds will still go into one big hole. Try the load, what do you have to loose? It may work well in your pistol, it may not ....... Kind of like shooting .22 rifles in match, have to try a bunch of ammo to find what works well in your rifle.

AJ

 

[boatbum101]

No idea how your gun is set up . IE open sights ? Slide mounted Dot ? Match barrel / bushing ? Trigger ? etc.
Mine have all been done with fitted slide to frame , Kart hard fitted barrels / bushings , 3.5lb short roll triggers , 10lb recoil springs , 19lb mainsprings , slide mounted 30mm Ultradots , Clark scope ribs . For cast I use either the H&G 69 200gr FBSWC or the H&G S242 160gr FBSWC . Have been using the Zero swaged 200gr SWC lately & it shoots very well . My guns prefer either 3.6 - 3.7grs VVN-310 , 3.8 -4.0 Bullseye or 4.2 WST with these bullets . N-310 is temp sensitive , so below 50 degrees I use Bulleye . Primers I use Winchester , Federal or CCI . Swaged I crimp to .469 , cast I crimp to .467 . 4.6 to 5.0 W231 is what most use with a cast 200gr SWC or 4.0 - 4.2 Bullseye . 3.5 Bullseye will work @ 25 for T & R , but 4.2 works better @ 50 . Slower loads require a " hard hold " @ 50 yds . The 160gr S242 works well on the short line also & I use 4.3 - 4.5grs of Bullseye with them . Sounds like recoil is an issue , if so lighter bullet & a softer shooting powder might help . WST seems to have a softer recoil impulse to me & you could try the 185 or 160 SWC bullets .

 

[dave1918a2]

I shot IPSC for decades and used guns built locally. Most had a 18 or 20 LB spring. Even My Pachmayer Colt had a 20 LB'er. My load was 6gr WW231 and a H&G 200 gr swc sized to .452. Two of My guns would ransom rest 1.5 inches at 50 yards.

 

[growr]

A similar load to dave1918a2.....H&G #68 200 SWC and 6 gr of the dreaded Unique.....have used successfully since 1974...seems like they are just made for each other..

Randy

 

[lrrifleman]

I am shooting a Springfield Armory Trophy Match with only iron sights. Back before the accident, I was able to hold the aiming black at both 25 and 50 yards with my cast bullets and WW231. The bullet is an RCBS 45-201 (their mold for an H&G68).

Recoil is an issue, when it comes to a 2700 Precision Pistol Match. For action style, fast moving matches, full power service loads are not a problem. But when it comes to the prolonged Precision Pistol Matches, I can benefit from mouse-fart loads to help compensate for:
Vision challenges from diabetes and cataracts not yet ripe enough for surgery,
Significant leg (muscu-skeletal) injuries, and,
A damaged weak-side shoulder and arm injuries.

Before the accident, I was on the road to go Distinguished with my Service Rifle, the chances of that happening now is right up there with running a successful snow cone concession in Hades! My goal now is to develop the skills so I can try to go Distinguished with the Service Pistol.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

I too shoot the RCBS 45-201.I used to shoot it on top of 3.5 Bullseye or 700X(similar results)in my Gold Cup.
I sold the GC and bought a 1911 S&W DK that prefers 4.0gr 700X with the same bullet.It kicks a little more but groups way better than the GC.

 

[Troystat]

You might try a lighter bullet, I shoot a 185 grain lead swc from Bayou bullets with 3.7-3.8 grains of Bulleye and a .464-.465 crimp. I have used the same bullet with 4.6 grains of W231 as well. I don't think there is a big difference between the accuracy of the two powders and I just switched to bulleye because I am cheap and that powder worked well with my 38 special loads as well. Good luck with your shooting

 

[rockquarry]

I've had good results with 5 grs. Bullseye and a wheelweight alloy SAECO #069 (their version of the H&G 68 mould) sized to .452"; standard recoil spring. Muzzle velocity 850 - 875 in a Colt 5" 1911-style pistol or similar copy.

 

[AJ]

You might try a lighter bullet, I shoot a 185 grain lead swc from Bayou bullets with 3.7-3.8 grains of Bulleye and a .464-.465 crimp. I have used the same bullet with 4.6 grains of W231 as well. I don't think there is a big difference between the accuracy of the two powders and I just switched to bulleye because I am cheap and that powder worked well with my 38 special loads as well. Good luck with your shooting

Years ago I too, used a 185 gr cast slug that I cast at the time. Then I found a good source of 20 gr cast SWC's that I began using. Readjusted my sights and been using them for years. The 3.5 grains of Bullseye works well for me. Test and then find the load that works for you. Let us know what you find out.

 

[6string]

Hi,
I use 3.5 gr. Bullseye with either 185 or 200 gr cast SWCs.
I've tried different primers and brass, no problems. Taper crimp w/ Dillon dies. Seat the bullets so the leading edge of the front band is about .025" proud of case mouth.
I think I have a 14 lb recoil spring. (I'd have to check.)

Yeah, I shoot bullseye 2700. Great load. Accurate for the long line, quick recovery and low recoil for RF.
The only other load that has been as consistently accurate was with VV N-310. But, the recoil is snappier, and the stuff is expensive and hard to find.

Jim

 

[rockquarry]

You might try a lighter bullet, I shoot a 185 grain lead swc from Bayou bullets with 3.7-3.8 grains of Bulleye and a .464-.465 crimp. I have used the same bullet with 4.6 grains of W231 as well. I don't think there is a big difference between the accuracy of the two powders and I just switched to bulleye because I am cheap and that powder worked well with my 38 special loads as well. Good luck with your shooting

Are you getting good accuracy with such a crimp? I crimp just enough to prevent bullet movement and permit easy chambering, around .469-.470. If your tighter crimp gives you good results, I may have to try it.

 

[Wise_A]

I would look to Bullseye or WST for typical bullseye-ish loads.

 

[Rule3]

If your "shooting arm was covered in soot" that tells me your powder charge is to light.

Change one variable at a time. Try a higher charge. If that don't help then switch to Bullesye or WST but I honestly don't think that will make a difference. Could be your "bullet" who knows??

Do you know what recoil spring you have? How old is it?

 

[jimmyj]

.45 Match Ammo

200 gr cast SWC with 4.5 gr Bullseye

 

[342ti]

Bullseye is the optimum choice for 45acp, always has been! With 200gr SWC, try both 4.0grs & 4.5grs, your gun will tell you which charge weight it likes. You should be using Federal Primers also.

 

[colt_saa]

Decades ago when I switched from Unique to 231 I settled on 5.5 grains behind the H&G #68 SWC lit off by Winchester primers.

I originally used CCI exclusively, but switched to Winchester during a dry spell in the CCIs a couple of decades back

 

[fredj338]

Powder choce is way down the line for accuracy in most calibers. Your w231 load is too low for optimal burn rate. If you want softer shootng 45acp, go to a faster powder. I like wst over powders like BE or TG but other faster powders work fine.

 

[tndrfttom]

I shot Bullseye for about 30 years til urban encroachment closed the two nearest ranges. When I started I listened to what the old-timers recommended. For 25 yards it was the 185 grain Hensley & Gibbs 130 wadcutter with 3.7 grains of Bullseye. For 50 yards the 200 grain H&G 68 semi-wadcutter with 4.0 grains of Bullseye. I believe the 200 grain H&G 68 bullet is the best all-around combination if you only load one Bullseye target load but I told myself that the lighter bullet gave me better shot to shot recovery in the timed and rapid fire stages. I've also tried 231 and Unique with good results but tend to revert back to Bullseye for most of my target loads.

As with anything in reloading - your results may vary so use caution working up your handloads.

 

[reddog81]

My favorite 45 ACP load uses 4.0 Bullseye with a 200 grain SWC. My lyman manual has 2 different 200 grn bullets. The starting load for Bullseye is 3.5 for on and 4.9 for the other... 4.0 is a light load but it has worked well in various 1911's even with stock springs and my Glock 34.

FWIW shooting a handgun at 25 yards takes a lot of practice. Shooting at 50 yards takes tons of practice. If I visit the range 2 or 3 times a month and practice at 25 yards every-time I can get groups in the 1 to 2 inch range after a couple of months. At 50 yards i can get a 4 inch group but need to use a scope. At 100 yards I'm happy to hit a 12 inch gong a majority of the time with iron sights. These all assume I'm having a good day, using an accurate gun and using accurate handloaded ammo for that gun. After a long winter of minimal shooting group sizes often double.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Never got to shoot matches with the Government Model M1911, just fix them, when I was in the Navy.

Ammo was the standard Ball 230gr FML, that would fall between 760 to 850fps , in the old war horses that we had.

Just had to put up with the standard 16 pound spring unless it got old with use and got down to 14 pounds.
We knew, if the ejected cases landing at three feet or six feet from the shooter, when the springs needed to be retired.

Back then, only time at the range was the only way to improve scores.

Today with the Variable style springs and custom parts at your use and tight bushings, a ACP can cut its groups in half, without even reloading with different powders and components.

The 45 ACP has come a long way, from when I had the pleasure of having them laying on the work bench, in front of me.

No matter what load you come up with to shoot your matches with.....
Just know that you are a winner, just having that fabulous weapon, to enjoy.

Stay Safe.

 

[7P's]

May I suggest you spend just a little bit of money and switch to 185 grain Zero jacketed bullets in front of 4.2 grains of Vihtavuori N-310.

 

[lrrifleman]

Do you know what recoil spring you have? How old is it?

I am currently using a 14# Wolfe that is a hair over a year old and has seen about 800 rounds.

 

[oysterer]

I tried a variety of loads including BE and various others.

My 220 SSE makes one big hole at 25 yards with 200gr. Blue Bullet SWC and 5.0 gr. W231, Cci 300s. My Baser likes those too. I went to that from 4.7 gr. Bullsye 230 Gr. Sierra RN. The BB 200 SWC and W231 is a better recipe. So accurate and easy on the guns.

 

[fredj338]

Accuracy always starts with the shooter, then gun, then a good bullet. Powder is way down the list. Hard to beat Sierra or Hornady match grade JHP for accuracy. Nosler 185gr are popular too. You can certainly get a cast 200gr LSWC to shoot but might take more tinkering with bullet alloy & size & lubes.