.45 ACP vs. .45 Auto Rim

[Krogen]

I recently bought a Model 25-2. It didn't take me long to learn I truly dislike moon clips and the claptrap for loading and unloading them. My thinking is .45 Auto Rim provides a logical solution. Thanks to a kind forum member, I have a good supply of .45 AR to mess with. Thank you quikdraw67!

Thinking ahead, and perhaps over-thinking, I see a dilemma. I always thought that .45 ACP and .45 AR are the same case other than being rimless or rimmed. I thought they have the same internal capacity. I planned to use standard .45 ACP loading information in the .45 AR.

Then I started looking through Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbooks. Both the 3rd and 4th editions have separate sections for .45 ACP and .45 AR. OK, I thought, they used different guns and are publishing different velocities. It's not that simple. The max/min load, pressures and velocities vary between the two cartridges using the same bullet and powder. I doubt primer differences between the data sets have much effect. LOA isn't responsible.

Perhaps this just reflects different test data sets taken at different times by different people. But it has my attention. Are these cartridges significantly different from an internal ballistics standpoint?

 

[22hipower]

Are these cartridges significantly different from an internal ballistics standpoint?

If there is any material difference between the two it never appeared to me and didn't make any noticeable difference. I use both in my 25-2s and 625s with the same load; mostly cast 230 or coated 230 grain bullets.

I first went with AR cases too because I didn't want to mess with moon clips but with the proper tools and good quality clips they're actually easy to use and fast.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[Pig Hunter]

The AR has a lower max SAMMI pressure than the ACP. That said the interior capacity is nearly the same. I think the reason is so many Enfield top breaks that were rechambered to ACP, they can't really handle ACP pressures . In and N frame you can use ACP data with no worries.

 

[ReloadforFun]

For whatever reasons, the SAAMI Maximuym Average Pressure for the 45 AR has always been lower than that for the 45 Auto. The 45 AR has never had transducer values, staying with copper crusher data.

The SAAMI MAP for the 45 AR is 15000 CUP while the 45 Auto is 18000 CUP.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Used to reload for a 1917 Colt, got some AR cases and shell holder,
Loaded moderate cast bullet loads.
Also don’t like Moon Clips, AR reloads never missed a beat!

 

[Krogen]

Thanks, guys! I knew I came to the right place. It never occurred to me that the two cartridges would have different pressure limits. Good to know some of the Auto Rim's background. My initial plan for the 25-2 is Bullseye matches. I'll be shooting some light loads. Pressures will be low.

 

[rockquarry]

Sierra has considerable "heavy" data for .45 ACP / Auto Rim revolvers.

I much prefer Auto Rim brass to ACP brass for revolver use. Much more convenient and no clips or tools needed, but some like the ACP brass and the clips and tools. That's okay, too.

 

[buckshotshorty]

I have only fired low velocity target loads in my 25-2 and although AR cases make things easy, my 25-2 will fire every ACP I ever fed it and to eject the cases I just turn the gun upside down and the cases fall out. Very few need to be coaxed with a pencil up the cylinder to remove the case.
I only use ACP cases on my practice ammo

 

[steelslaver]

I have 5 acp revolvers. I have 0 auto rim cases but over 100 full moon, a bunch of 1/2 moon clips. They are way cheaper and faster than any "speed loaders". I never mess with clips at the range. I can reload with clips faster, pick up my brass faster. My empties in clips go in a coffee can. When I am going to reload it only takes a few seconds to remove brass from clip. Once loaded it don't take long to put a couple 100 rounds in clips. You can do it and watch TV

With good tools and practice it doesn't take much more time to load rounds in a moon clip than a speed loader or magazine. The extra time needed is made up for by not wasting time picking up brass or speed
loaders

If you want to shoot rimmed 45 rounds, get a 45 colt

 

[DeplorabusUnum]

I shoot both, and use 45 ACP load data for both. Not a problem in my model 25.

I did find however that the 45 AR brass will not fit in the 45 ACP shell holder that I use to de-prime my brass, nor will they fit in the hand primer I use to prime brass with. I had to get a special shell holder and priming attachment for my rock chucker to de-prime and prime the brass. It makes more work for me than just using the moon clips with a good loader. I got the BMT N45-6 and it makes loading the clips a breeze.

My 45 AR brass is probably not going to get much use from now on.

 

[zeke]

Have a preference for the 45 AR cases, and imo Starline cases are much better than Rem. Also have clips, although prefer the 1/2 moon clips. Have found it takes maybe up to .2 gns more hp-38 to get same velocity out of an ar case, than a 45 acp case. That could be due to any number of things.

Have 5 45 acp revolvers and thousands of AR cases.

If memory serves, Sierra's new manual did away with the heavier loads for revolvers section

 

[Greyman50]

Try to rubber moon clips Brownells sells, quick to load and unload. I shoot mostly SWC cast in my 25-2 and 1911s now with ammo situation. SWCs are harder to load with clip in 25-2 but at range there is no rush. By chance ever used for protection or hunting jacketed rounds load just fine.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

I generally load my AR reloads lighter than my acp as I have a bunch of 1911s and ar pcc’s and need the power to run them. I also run my acp loads through a lee bulge buster so they work in all my toys. I always use moonclips whenever I shoot my 625 in a combat match instead of a 1911. Get all my brass back that way.

 

[Bryan Austin]

I recently bought a Model 25-2. It didn't take me long to learn I truly dislike moon clips and the claptrap for loading and unloading them. My thinking is .45 Auto Rim provides a logical solution. Thanks to a kind forum member, I have a good supply of .45 AR to mess with. Thank you quikdraw67!

Thinking ahead, and perhaps over-thinking, I see a dilemma. I always thought that .45 ACP and .45 AR are the same case other than being rimless or rimmed. I thought they have the same internal capacity. I planned to use standard .45 ACP loading information in the .45 AR.

Then I started looking through Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbooks. Both the 3rd and 4th editions have separate sections for .45 ACP and .45 AR. OK, I thought, they used different guns and are publishing different velocities. It's not that simple. The max/min load, pressures and velocities vary between the two cartridges using the same bullet and powder. I doubt primer differences between the data sets have much effect. LOA isn't responsible.

Perhaps this just reflects different test data sets taken at different times by different people. But it has my attention. Are these cartridges significantly different from an internal ballistics standpoint?

The pressure differences can be seen on page 24 and 32 here

 

[StrawHat]

The 45 Auto Rim was brought out by Peters in 1923(?) to allow the shooters of the S&W Model 1917 a rimmed cartridge to use. The rim is thick to duplicate the thickness of the moon clip and the rim on the 45 ACP cartridge. It was intended to be used mostly with lead bullets thus at lower pressures, but it was merely the ACP case with a rim. Identical in every way except the rim.

They can be loaded to the same pressure. Starline brass is actually stronger than the original stuff and can most likely handle 45 Super pressures.

There’s was never any consideration of using them in the Wesley or other improperly converted revolvers.

Kevin

 

[Krogen]

With good tools and practice it doesn't take much more time to load rounds in a moon clip than a speed loader or magazine.

Can you recommend some good tools? I see plenty of de-mooning tools that seem to work well. Inserting rounds in the clips is more of a hassle. I see pricey tools that will insert all six with a quick rotation. I'm disinclined to spend $90 on one without some confidence it will work well.

 

[Krogen]

Try to rubber moon clips Brownells sells, quick to load and unload. I shoot mostly SWC cast in my 25-2 and 1911s now with ammo situation. SWCs are harder to load with clip in 25-2 but at range there is no rush. By chance ever used for protection or hunting jacketed rounds load just fine.

Rubber moon clips sound like a great idea. I searched Brownells and came up empty-handed. I suspect they've been discontinued or (more-likely) it's pilot error. Do you have a link?

 

[jag22]

When I bought my 25-2 it came with 100 pieces of AR but I quickly found out that my Forster press required a special case holder. Since I also got about a dozen moon clips I figured I would give them a try. Eventually bought the BMT mooner, a great tool. Love it. Using moon clips is great, you can do all that at home so no wasted time at the range. Wouldn't change a thing.

 

[Baltimoreed11754]

BMT Mooner is a great tool but pricey.

 

[robertrwalsh]

The moon clip tool made by BMT is great, but it is quite expensive. I finally bought one and am very happy I did.