.45 ACP vs. everything else

[oldman45]

Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall's "study" on the effects of stopping power has been suspect, if not outright dismissed, almost since the time it was released back in the early 90s. Many in the gun press have criticized, correctly, in my opinion, that their findings left out much data that was essential in their recommendations as to proper bullet weight, caliber, etc.

As many here will attest, there is seldom that two experts will agree. I go to court and testify one way and then the other side brings in their expert to testify another. If the expert cannot disagree with what has been said, then the attacks begin aginst the initial expert.

Often times I will use scientific works of others and the opposing counsel will then attack those works.

There will always be a difference of opinions,no matter what the subject or who the experts are. S&M research papers have been accepted in court trials for many years.

 

[venomballistics]

Guess I'll join in here.

I like the 45. I shoot it well in a full size gun. But in a compact, the 9 suits me just fine. I can do without the 40.

The true problem is that there are too many experts on the matter and none of them agree.

For every one that say's that one caliber is the best, there is yet another that say's the opposite.

I can find statements by very well known experts and instructors that prefer one caliber over the other. And they all practice what they preach.

So who do you believe? The answer is, none of them. You work out your own salvation and do what's best for you.

Also, many of the studies done on shootings and the effects of different calibers include people with different shooting styles and methods.

For example, gang bangers fire for effect. They fill the air with bullets until they hit their intended target. Often there are multiple targets. Either that or they walk up to you and shoot from arms length or closer. I don't care what caliber you use. Your dead at arms length. And MOST of them use FMJ ammo.

Caliber is not the most important choice to make. Instead, choice of a gun that fit's YOU, quality training, practice, and situational awareness MUST be given equal consideration.

One without the other is foolish. And caliber wars are foolish to argue. If experts and instructors don't agree, what makes you thing we will?

in short, everything and nothing works.
we see figures from the various studies conflicting... furthermore, they conflict with the news.
in north Omaha, we find most of our "interesting folks" where drive by's and other forms of shootings are fairly plentiful.
survival rate is just a bit less than half, often with multiple hits. man the data that could be collected from gang shootings if anyone would talk...

 

[dcxplant]

LittleBrother,

Those vids are eye openers.

What I find very interesting is a .380 with a quality expanding bullet, and .45 hardball. .45 harball goes right through, overpenetrating and causing little damage. .380 hollowpoint (I think is was a Gold Dot) did much more damage.

I chose .40, but, like I said in my original response, pick any caliber between .380 and .500 with a high quality expanding bullet, place it well, and they will go down.

 

[Engineer1911]

At Post #104, there is nothing I can add to the debate.

 

[NKJ nut]

Gelatin test results are fine as long as we don't confuse the results with reality. I have yet to hear of anyone attacked by zombie gelatin blocks clothed in denim and leather. These tests are good for showing one thing only; how different bullets perform in gelatin. It may simulate human muscle tissue, but I have yet to see any human who was 8, 12 or 18 inches of solid muscle. From almost any angle there will be bones to penetrate along the bullets path. And for doing that I would rather depend on a .45 hardball load than any .380 expanding bullet regardless of how it performs in gelatin.

Also as others have said, Marshall and Sanow's study has been almost universally discredited due to the method they used.

 

[oldman45]

The fact remains that M & S made a lot of money in their report and people have used it.

The same BS happens in gun magazines (the type we read). A writer will swear a certain gun is the best gun in history and suggest nobody can live without one when the truth is the gun is a piece of trash.

There have been many tests done on guns, bullets, cars, airplanes and other things that show differing results using the same testing methods. Weather, humidity, elevation and other things can play a part in testing results.

It all boils down to what works best for the individual. I prefer the .45acp but would not be uncomfortable with .357, .40S&W or .38spl. What works for one may not work for another due to some reason. Personally I have seen a lot more dead, dying or critically injured from .45 or .40 than from a .380 but if someone wants to trust their only life to a .380, I am not going to tell them they cannot. Hundreds of thousands of dead Japanese and German soldiers would say the .45 worked well. Since there were over 7 million killed and the .45 was the close combat weapon, it must have worked.

 

[venomballistics]

At Post #104, there is nothing I can add to the debate.

then add a plug for the 25 ACP and watch the show
then after a few flames say your waiting for em to come out with a 26

 

[6mmman]

If one is looking for a perticular answer than they can make a study to get it. (Bad Science) I would agree that the record of the 45acp speaks for itself with two world wars, Korea,Vietnam, and any number of brush fires. Also many in use today in the military. IMHO the 357mag is also good and I am sure the others will work. Carry conditions dictate what I use. Right now I am carrying a PPK 380. Do I think it is the best? No, but I couldnt hide my 1911 today. Any of them will help me get back to my rifle!!!!


Just my rant for the day.

 

[BaldEagle1313]

Not sure if this is really adding to the discussion, but here goes anyway.

If the gun I'd put the most rounds through and was comfortable and accurate with was a 9 MM, I'd carry the 9 MM. Until I got the 45, that's what I did. Since I was carrying a single stack 9 MM (S&W 908), round count was essentially the same. Differed by only a single round.

Since the gun I've now put the most rounds through and am comfortable and accurate with is my 45 ACP (S&W 457), I carry the 45 ACP.

I do find it interesting that throughout this whole thread that while there have been many mentions of the 40 cal round unless I missed it there has been no mention of the 10 MM. A real 10 MM round, not a gelded round equivalent to the 40 cal. Even Little Brother's post with all the youtube links didn't have a link to a 10 MM test. Don't know if that means there isn't one (hard to believe) or that the 10 MM doesn't get considered. Not advocating one way or the other. Just something I noticed.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Not sure if this is really adding to the discussion, but here goes anyway.

If the gun I'd put the most rounds through and was comfortable and accurate with was a 9 MM, I'd carry the 9 MM. Until I got the 45, that's what I did. Since I was carrying a single stack 9 MM (S&W 908), round count was essentially the same. Differed by only a single round.

Since the gun I've now put the most rounds through and am comfortable and accurate with is my 45 ACP (S&W 457), I carry the 45 ACP.

I do find it interesting that throughout this whole thread that while there have been many mentions of the 40 cal round unless I missed it there has been no mention of the 10 MM. A real 10 MM round, not a gelded round equivalent to the 40 cal. Even Little Brother's post with all the youtube links didn't have a link to a 10 MM test. Don't know if that means there isn't one (hard to believe) or that the 10 MM doesn't get considered. Not advocating one way or the other. Just something I noticed.

The 10MM is a great caliber. But I know some that thinks it's magical.

If it were more mainstream, it would be mentioned much more. But because there aren't many 10MM guns available, people don't consider it when looking for a carry gun.

If it had been more successful with the FBI, things would be much different. So now we have 40 Short & Weak.

 

[Fishslayer]

So now we have 40 Short & Weak.

You mean the 10mm Kurtz?

I have a ton of brass for that & just never was interested enough to buy a launcher...

 

[Horace & Daniel]

Yes, yes, I have a howitzer in my backyard. The scenario is as described. No shotguns, no rifles, no spoons or small atomic devices. Don't assume they are full size service pistols.

Your choice is ANY platform in the three choice calibers. (you like Hi-cap guns? They make all three calibers in 14 rd plus choices)

You can't hide in the closet or under the bed. It's going down right now AND you HAVE to go thru the door.

What caliber goes out the door with you?

I think this will work - FNP-45 Tactical

 

[venomballistics]

You mean the 10mm Kurtz?

I have a ton of brass for that & just never was interested enough to buy a launcher...

similar story here only my unicorn grail gun is a 10MM long and strong.
there is a barrel to fit any 1911 in 45 that is chambered for 400 corbon, a very promising little caliber that seems to go toe to toe with the 10MM with lighter bullets .. and uses all your old 45 mags. Barrel, spring, and a set of dies is all ya need

 

[617X10]

If .45 ACP was the be-all-end-all, there wouldn't be .38 Super, .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, 10MM, .40S&W, .357Sig, or .327 Federal Mag. Besides, it gets pretty boring shooting the same bullet all of the time.

 

[oldman45]

If .45 ACP was the be-all-end-all, there wouldn't be .38 Super, .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, 10MM, .40S&W, .357Sig, or .327 Federal Mag. Besides, it gets pretty boring shooting the same bullet all of the time.

Like many things, one that works is better than two that do not.

I never get bored shooting the same .45acp round. In fact, I do it a couple times each week. Of course, a few times each year I will play with a .357, .38, .40 or even a 9mm but those times are when others are with me that may not be ready for a .45acp.

Admittedly, no caliber is perfect for everyone but one caliber is pretty much perfect when it gets down to it.

 

[venomballistics]

If .45 ACP was the be-all-end-all, there wouldn't be .38 Super, .357 Mag, .41 Mag, .44 Mag, 10MM, .40S&W, .357Sig, or .327 Federal Mag. Besides, it gets pretty boring shooting the same bullet all of the time.

38 super ... a good target competition round
357 mag ... a fine round for hunting and light social work
41 mag ... like 357 but more of whatcha want out there
44 mag ... a personal favorite, nearly a pure hunter be it bunnies to bear
10MM ... now your talking SD ... if you can keep her fed
40 S&W .... I'd rather have the 10MM
357 Sig ... really now .... Ok I guess its better than a 9
327 .... we got a varmint winner here
45 .... worked for my relatives living and dead in WW2, Korea, and Nam ... it's good enough to work for me

 

[kmyers]

Favorite calibers.

.22 LR. Most useful and practical for a greater variety of uses than many, most fun that can be shot cheaply, but NOT for self defense.
.45 ACP. My favorite because it is relatively easy to use without many problems in handling.
.40 S&W. I have to smile at anybody who calls it short and weak while thinking the .45 ACP is a death ray compared to it.
.357 Magnum. Very powerful, but it does need a relatively hefty revolver if you want to double tap.

I always like reading these examples because most of us have favorites and legitimate reasons for the choices, but I then also remember the comments by many that if given the choice and knew they would face 1 or 2 armed and determined criminals they would rather grab a 12 gauge with buckshot before grabbing a 'mere pistol'.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Favorite calibers.
.40 S&W. I have to smile at anybody who calls it short and weak while thinking the .45 ACP is a death ray compared to it.

Yes but, the 40 was a compromise and not a very good one at that. The only reason it's popular is because law enforcement adopted it. It's marginally better than the 9MM.

Seriously speaking, put a service caliber gun in the hands of a person that knows how to use it and caliber isn't as much of a factor.

As Paul Harvey used to say "And now, you know the rest of the story".

 

[kmyers]

It's marginally better than the 9MM.

Seriously speaking, put a service caliber gun in the hands of a person that knows how to use it and caliber isn't as much of a factor.

I always question the marginally better than 9mm but would want proof of that.

I do agree with you about the any decent caliber that penetrates sufficiently I have no problem with those. What's the quote. Shot placement first and adequate penetration is second.

I would call ALL handguns as marginal and a trade off for portability. I would look funny toting a pump 12 gauge all over the place. LOL.

 

[papajohn428]

Caliber is nice if you have it, but it's not necessary if you can put your bullets where they need to go. I'm NOT saying a 9mm is the full ballistic equal of a 45ACP, but the Nine is generally easier to shoot for most folks. I carry a 4" 38 on duty and don't feel undergunned at all..........but I practice with it a lot, and that includes speedloads.

Regardless of caliber, you can't miss fast enough to accomplish much!