.45 ACP vs. everything else

[Fishslayer]

One item that has zero to do with stopping power but is one of many reasons I committed to .45ACP...

...it's dead easy for n00b to reload. I got back into guns during the Great Ammo Drought but actually went in knowing I was gonna be cranking a handle eventually.

9mm isn't really that hard but it is way more touchy about charge weights and OAL.

.45ACP you'd have to be seriously out of it to screw up badly enough to be dangerous.

 

[oldman45]

There's been some statements in this thread that I have to express a difference of opinion with.

1. Quote: "Back during WWI, it was found the .45acp round to be most effective. During WWII, it was again the gun the Germans feared. NATO pushed for the 9mm due to lesser chance of lethal injury and being a common cartridge. As usual, the US government caved and went to a 9mm."

What study showed that the .45ACP was most effective (as opposed to the 1911 being a good platform for trench warfare)? More effective than what? Webley .455? German 9mm? Did someone establish a protocol and collect information on how combatants reacted to being hit with a round from a pistol? There are anecdotes; however anecdotes do not demonstrate stopping power, they are generally used to selectively bolster a particular position. The various versions of the Sgt. York story are a good example.

I've read a lot of WWII history, and have never seen anything about German soldiers notably having a special fear of the .45. With several million men under arms, I'm sure someone might have said something somewhere, but: "the gun the Germans feared"? As opposed to an M-1 Garand or a Soviet PPSh?

"Lesser chance of lethal injury". Again, I've never seen anything to document that. The desire to standardize calibers is well-known but there's been a long-running urban myth that Georg Luger invented the 9mm Parabellum to "wound" rather than kill, and this sounds like another re-hash of that.

2. The question has been proposed that one should state which weapon one would grab (9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP), to confront an immediate threat. I believe the proper response is as follows:

First: the one I was currently trained and capable on.

Second: if currently capable on all, then the one that represented the best quality platform on the table; i.e., a new Kimber would trump a beat-up early Beretta M-9, a Beretta M9A1 would be preferable to an old Colt or Remington-Rand warhorse from the 40's and so on.

Third: if all were good examples, then I would take the one with the best type of ammunition in it. If FMJ were the only choice, I would probably grab the .40, because I've only seen that caliber with flat-points, and that MIGHT give it a slight advantage over round-nose FMJ.

3. Finally, there is the ever-popular "which would you rather be shot with?" question, to which I can only answer: I would strongly prefer not to be shot with any of them, because they are all very lethal, and I prefer not to expire just yet.


The winner in a gunfight will be decided by the fact of who gets the first vital hit in, and by the psychological reaction of your opponent to being hit if it isn't an instantly disabling CNS injury. Whether it's a revolver or any of the various auto types, a gun that fits your hand well-enough (and we are an adaptable species, within limits), places decently powerful hits quickly and accurately enough, and is combined with the training to enable you to do that to the best of your ability will count for far more than the thousands of articles written on "stopping power".

There is a lot in most any thread someone might disagree with.

As to the reasons behind the choice of .45, it is well documented. Even the great Massad Ayoob wrote about it in some of his works. In many of the books written about WWII, there is mention of how the German soldiers kept complaining to the leaders about the superiority of the American handgun over their Lugar. Also, much of the war was fought in the trenches and not long distances. While rifles were important, the 1911 was better in close quarters. Two of my friends are authors on WWII history and they both give credit to the .45acp as giving the US an edge in the war.

I have several books on weaponry and there is mention of NATO wanting all to use the 9mm since it was not as lethal as some other cartridges. NATO is not my favorite group either. They are right up there with the United Nations in my view and both would love to see the US fall.

As to Luger, have you read his biography and his thoughts behind the gun?

Then we have the actual history of the calibers. You mentioned York. but there have been books written about dozens of others that used the .45acp successfully. What books have been written on the successful use of the 9mm, the .455 or any other caliber? Past performance is the best indicator of success.

Again, we can disagree or agree. It just depends on the subject. Each will have their own opinion but most will be based on what they have heard or read in some article as opposed to research. I can only imagine what it would have been like in WWII if there had been email.

 

[Art Doc]

When I was young I read Jeff Cooper and listened to all the experts extol the man-stopping capabilities of the 45 ACP and denounce all lesser calibers as pipsqueaks or "mouse guns." I bought a Colt Government model and loaded it with 230 "hardball" confident that it would instantly render anyone shot with it dysfunctional.

Ah, the ignorance of youth.

When I was 20 years old I was working nights in a convenience store to pay for college tuition. One night I was assaulted by an armed robber. In the ensuing gunfight I put 4 rounds of 45 ACP into the criminal's torso. He showed absolutely no reaction to any of the gunshot wounds and I wasn't sure I was scoring hits until he finally bled out and collapsed.

So much for the legendary stopping power of the 45 ACP. Apparently it is just that, legendary.

On the other hand, there was a famous shooting in my hometown involving a member of a well known motorcycle club. He was the enforcer for the local chapter and was a hulking, body-builder type who stood 6'6" and weighed 450 pounds. He was a monster. He came at a guy during a dispute and the object of his ire whipped out a S&W M39 and put one round of 9mm ball through the big man's chest. He dropped like a stone and was dead before he hit the floor. This, remember, is the cartridge so disparaged by Cooper, et al.

Later I heard comments by a surgeon who had treated hundreds of gunshot victims in a big city hospital. He said that it was impossible to see any difference in the damage to the body made by different handgun rounds except for the 22 Long Rifle and a 44 Magnum. The 22 wounds were definitely less traumatic (he didn't specifically mention it but I suspect the 25 ACP would be the same situation) and the 44s were more destructive and could be seen as such. But everything in between looked the same. He had seen wounds made with just about every pistol caliber imaginable and he couldn't tell them apart judging by the damage to the body. There simply isn't enough difference in power between a 380 and a 38 or even a 357 to be discernible.

He noted that all handgun wounds paled in comparison to those made by high powered rifles.

I have come to the realization that it doesn't make a whole lot of difference what caliber handgun you carry. If you hit someone squarely with it the effect is roughly the same regardless of bullet size. The only factor where power might be important is in penetrating outer clothing, like heavy winter garments. So the best advice is to carry what feels good to you and you can shoot well. The size of the cartridge really isn't all that meaningful despite what many people think.

 

[venomballistics]

I questioned hardball not the caliber.
that legacy 230RN, while effective, ranks dead last of all other designs in my testing

 

[Cyrano]

There's a biography of Georg Luger?!?! Title? Author? i'd sure like to read it.

 

[oldman45]

There's a biography of Georg Luger?!?! Title? Author? i'd sure like to read it.

The Germans honored him the same as we do John Moses Browning. There are several books about both he and his co-inventor that deals with the people and the gun. The Luger has an interesting history that few take the time to learn. It was replaced by the German government in 1940 (before the war) but saw service during the war and considered to be the side arm of German troops during the war.

I will get the info about the book I read and post it for you. A good friend of mine is a book publisher and lets me read their books about guns.

 

[Revolver-time]

I carry a .45 ACP as my CCW. While I have never had to pull my 45 to confront an issue, I somehow feel comfortable with a big slow moving slug.
It has been pointed out to me in the past that shooting a human is nothing like shooting a game animal. While I am sure the "experts" or more experience know of what they say, I only have handgun experience on deer and a bullet proof vest I tested.

On the vest, I shot at 5 yards with a .22, 38, 357, 45 acp, 44 mag and a 30-06.
The 22 broke the fibers on the front of the vest but did not get into the kevlar. The 38 bounced off with no damage. The 357 got into the kevlar as did the 45. The 44 mag broke thru. The 06 went thru both sides of the vest. It has been a long time since I did this non-scientific test but, I remember the 06 was a 165gr. hunting round, the 38 was a 158 gr lead load, the 45 was a FMJ 230 and the 44 was a 240 gr. hollow point.

I have had good luck harvesting deer with very mild loaded 44 mags. I load 240 gr. lead semi wadcutters to about 700 FPS and all of the energy stays in the animal. A good hold just above the front leg has ALWAYS dropped the deer within just a few steps.

I may be all wet, but a big slow bullet is what I am comfortable with.

 

[David LaPell]

I like the .45 I really do, of course I prefer my .45 Colt over ACP but I do like the big bore, however if it were THE one, I would go with my .357 and I will tell you why. It can shoot light loads, not just .38's but light .357's, and then enough to take a deer if I need to. While the .45 ACP can do that, the .357 has the all around factor that I like. My second choice would be a .45, yet it again would be a .45 Colt.

 

[Cyrano]

Thanks Oldman45, I await your reply with interest. I hope the material is in English as I don't read German, although I can look at German pictures fluently. I can read French, however, but I don't expect a biography of Georg Luger in French is likely.

 

[Fishslayer]

When I was 20 years old I was working nights in a convenience store to pay for college tuition. One night I was assaulted by an armed robber. In the ensuing gunfight I put 4 rounds of 45 ACP into the criminal's torso. He showed absolutely no reaction to any of the gunshot wounds and I wasn't sure I was scoring hits until he finally bled out and collapsed.

So much for the legendary stopping power of the 45 ACP. Apparently it is just that, legendary.

I see your problem right there. You hit him in the torso. If you had hit him in the pinkie he would have spun around & gone down like bricks.

Hope I have been of help.

 

[M29since14]

Thanks Oldman45, I await your reply with interest. I hope the material is in English as I don't read German, although I can look at German pictures fluently.

I can listen to German music fluently, particularly older German music.

Jeff Cooper gets a lot of beatings in the .45 vs. everything-else department. He probably deserves it. But what most people know is not the whole story. I think Jeff (privately) admired the .38 Super, too. When I was a lad I had to purchase a .38 Super Commander because I could not find one in .45 and I wanted a Commander badly. I mentioned this one day and he remarked, "So how did you get along with it?" I told him once I got over the initial disappointment I was just fine with it and was glad to have it. And he said, "Just so!" I think he was one of many who admired the Super - quietly - but he did not push it for obvious reasons.

Anyone who loads his anti-personnel .45 with ball these days is a bit behind the curve.