45 Auto Rim

[Gary]

I need some heavy bullet loads for the .45 Auto Rim. I am especially interested in loads using Tightgroup with a 255gr LSWC bullet. Thanks.

 

[Hank783]

You may have a difficult time finding loads for what you are looking for. For a Number 2 alloy, 230 grain LRN bullet, Sized .452 the Tightgroup load is as follows:

4.0 to 4.8 grains gives 751 to 855 fps at 12,500 to 17,000 cup. I believe you would need a FMJ or at least a gas checked bullet to keep the lead from melting with a really hot load.

Have never seen loading information for a 255 grain bullet except for rifle loads.

 

[Gary]

You may have a difficult time finding loads for what you are looking for. For a Number 2 alloy, 230 grain LRN bullet, Sized .452 the Tightgroup load is as follows:

4.0 to 4.8 grains gives 751 to 855 fps at 12,500 to 17,000 cup. I believe you would need a FMJ or at least a gas checked bullet to keep the lead from melting with a really hot load.

Have never seen loading information for a 255 grain bullet except for rifle loads.

I am not looking to go real hot, maybe 800fps or so. The reason for the 255gr bullet is that I have several hundred of them and would like to be able to use them in my 625. I routinely drive these bullets to 800-900fps in my 45 Colt without any problems.

 

[Erich]

I use 255-grainers in my .45 AR loads much of the time. Don't use Titegroup, though - sorry.

 

[Iowahunter]

Do a search on here as I know there is alot of info on the AR with heavy bullets. I load up a 250gr with Unique that runs in the 8-850 range but, we just moved and I havn't found all of my reloading stuff yet, plus I lost all of my old data in the flood of 08 here.

Check this thread out.....45acp with 255gr boolit - Cast Boolits

 

[TSQUARED]

I have found Titegroup to be a bit too hot burning for lead bullet loads. For light loads I prefer Trail Boss and for heavier loads American Select or Unique. At one time an older Speer or Lyman manual had loads for 45 AR wth 250-255 grain bullets. I'm away from home for the winter so I can't help you at this moment.

 

[44forever]

I will have to check the charge weight but

I have loaded the 270 grain Thunderhead bullet in Auto Rim brass with Unique powder. Seem to work well and are accurate. I'll check the charge weight when I get home.

 

[lafayne]

Unique or Trail Boss works just fine in my 25 or 625 in AR brass and the 255 SWC bullet.

 

[roundgunner]

I use Titegroup with 230 cast a lot. 4.5 & 5 grain. I have never used it for 255 AR.

I use it for every pistol I reload for more than any other powder.
44 Mag data 240 SWC 9gr! Not in my guns.
45
38
357
380
40
I have not noticed any more lead than any other load under 900fps.

 

[Paul5388]

Here's some solid head AR data, but it's from Speer #8.

I use it with heavier bullets, but like you, I shoot them out of a M625.

One of the considerations is the seating depth of your particular 255 gr. Here's a comparison between the crimping groove on an Oregon Trails 255 gr on the right and a 270 gr bullet on the left. I believe the RCBS casts at 265 gr with my alloy, even though it's supposed to be a 255 gr.

 

[alwslate]

I have loaded 255 gr swc's in my 45 acp revolvers and prefer them to
lighter bullets. Auto rim brass, 4.8 grs of Bullseye gives 790 fps in my
1917 5 1/2" barrel. Same with 5.3 grs of 231 gives 815 fps. 6.1 grs of
Unique = 800 fps but is less consistant and less accurate in my guns.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Titegroup is the wrong powder to use for this application. You need a much slower powder. I load the loads from the manual that Paul posted and have gotten the results listed. I can't stand Titegroup for several reasons. Burning too hot is just one of them. Case fill is another. If it were me, I would use nothing faster than Unique and really prefer SR4756 for this kind of load. I have run the maximum load from the manual posted and it is a handful from my M625JM. 1100fps is not out of the question. Of course, that load can be reduced too.

 

[Gary]

Titegroup is the wrong powder to use for this application. You need a much slower powder. I load the loads from the manual that Paul posted and have gotten the results listed. I can't stand Titegroup for several reasons. Burning too hot is just one of them. Case fill is another. If it were me, I would use nothing faster than Unique and really prefer SR4756 for this kind of load. I have run the maximum load from the manual posted and it is a handful from my M625JM. 1100fps is not out of the question. Of course, that load can be reduced too.

I mentioned Tightgroup because I have some on hand. I am only looking for low velocity plinking loads (850fps or so). l am thinking of using 5 gr of Unique with a 255 LSWC bullet. Judging from the Speer # 8 data posted this load should work well.

 

[alwslate]

850 fps would be a light plinking load with a 185 gr swc but would be
closer to a +p load with a 255 gr bullet in the acp case. I suggest that
you invest in a chronograph if you don't already have one. That velocity
will require about 6.5 grs Unique. Every serious handloader should own
a chronograph. Prepare to be disillusioned about claimed velocities.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Prepare to be disillusioned about claimed velocities.

This is a very true statement with only one exception. Older manuals. Like the data posted by Paul. When I follow data from that era, I almost always get what is published. Within reasonalbe tolerances that is.

 

[Missionary]

Good morning
I have used 255 grainers in my AR cases but as mentioned above I use Unique. It ignites well and burns clean enough for me.. But then I grew up using Unique in revolvers and rifles (cast) so it will be hard for me to move on to something else. Unique JUST works well with lead and that is about all I shoot!

 

[perrazi]

brian pearce wrote and excellent article several issues ago in handloader magazine on loading the 45 ar. lots of good up to date info there. look up the issue at their website. several heavy bullets loads are included.

 

[whelenshooter]

Here's some solid head AR data, but it's from Speer #8.

Be VERY careful when using data from the old Speer manuals. The data from these old manuals was produced without the use of any equipment to measure pressures. This doesn't mean the information is useless; it just means you have to take it with a grain of salt and be very careful.

 

[ChuckS1]

Here's some solid head AR data, but it's from Speer #8.

Be VERY careful when using data from the old Speer manuals. The data from these old manuals was produced without the use of any equipment to measure pressures. This doesn't mean the information is useless; it just means you have to take it with a grain of salt and be very careful.

Just means you have to use common sense and know what you're doing... No nanny to hold your hand in case you don't know what to look for as you work up your loads.

 

[Paul5388]

The data from these old manuals was produced without the use of any equipment to measure pressures.

This misconception has been pretty thoroughly disproved on several occasions. Here's a picture from Speer #8 showing their pressure equipment.

This picture, from Gun Digest 1973, page 25, shows why Speer's data is correlated so well to actually velocities, they used a real gun!

 

[Skip Sackett]

We just went through this. Please, please, please, don't spread this urban legend or nonsense or ignorance anymore.

It's in a thread on this forum somewhere. The manuals most refer to are the older Speer. Folks try to malign them because they didn't post pressure data in them. Of course the picture of pressure equipment in their lab means nothing. Or it means that they were confused and spent money on equipment that they never used.

I called Speer and spoke to someone that had been fed the company line and was told to spread it to folks that called. When confronted with the Speer #6 with pressure data in it, he was faced with a personal dilemma, believe the company line (while having logical evidence to prove it wrong) or do some investigation and find the truth. Being a man of some integrity, he chose the latter and found that yes, the testing equipment was used for all of the load testing.

Don't believe me though, call Speer and talk to Coy in technical service. Ask specifically about the Speer #6 and his opinion (read knowledge) about subsequent manuals.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Should have said that different, sorry.

I mentioned Tightgroup because I have some on hand. I am only looking for low velocity plinking loads (850fps or so). l am thinking of using 5 gr of Unique with a 255 LSWC bullet. Judging from the Speer # 8 data posted this load should work well.

Gary,
I'm not a big fan of Titegroup and hence my comment seemed a little blunt. Sorry 'bout that!

Unique would be a fine powder to try. What other powders do you have available? I'm telling you, SR4756 is the real deal in this caliber! It meters better than Unique but Unique will get you there too.

Have fun and be safe!

 

[whelenshooter]

We just went through this. Please, please, please, don't spread this urban legend or nonsense or ignorance anymore.

It's in a thread on this forum somewhere. The manuals most refer to are the older Speer. Folks try to malign them because they didn't post pressure data in them. Of course the picture of pressure equipment in their lab means nothing. Or it means that they were confused and spent money on equipment that they never used.

I called Speer and spoke to someone that had been fed the company line and was told to spread it to folks that called. When confronted with the Speer #6 with pressure data in it, he was faced with a personal dilemma, believe the company line (while having logical evidence to prove it wrong) or do some investigation and find the truth. Being a man of some integrity, he chose the latter and found that yes, the testing equipment was used for all of the load testing.

Don't believe me though, call Speer and talk to Coy in technical service. Ask specifically about the Speer #6 and his opinion (read knowledge) about subsequent manuals.

This is pretty cool information... and I believe you! It does make sense. When I called them, however, I must have gotten the guy who was spreading the old company line. I repeated what he told me. It was not my intention to spread a lie, but I didn't know I was being lied to. A person does tend to believe the company representative when calling for specific information. Are the new manuals just far more conservative, or have the powders changed over time?

 

[Skip Sackett]

Whelen,
I would have never thought you would have knowingly spread something that was untrue! NEVER!

Just like the guy that I mentioned that I spoke to in the post above. He didn't know he wasn't sharing the truth. He had no idea! He was told something and repeated it. The problem was when he was confronted with some facts. I asked him to LOOK at his Speer #7. It had pressure data in it. Here were the questions that I asked him. (This is from memory so.............)
1. What was the method that the pressure data was generated by in the Speer #7?
2. Does it seem reasonable that they bypassed that equipment when working up loads for subsequent manuals?

The technician was kind like the rest of us honest types. When he saw that there actually was pressure data in one of the older manuals, he was confronted with some serious decisions. "Do I keep spreading what someone told me or do I do some more investigation." He chose the latter and called me back! Twice!
As rudimentary as it was, the equipment I mean, it was a pressure transducer and not the copper crusher method! Speer not only was ahead of it's time in bullet development but also a pioneer in data gathering!

I really appreciated the honesty of the technician. He could have just kept going with the company line. Being a man with some integrity, he simply couldn't! We need more folks like that in this ole' world.

Here is the thread where we discussed this topic at length. http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/117130-h-vs-a2400-old-loading-manuals-2.html

 

[bmcgilvray]

My 92 year-old M1917s, both the Colt and the Smith & Wesson, love 255 grain lead SWCs over 6.3 grains of Unique for 828 fps from their 5 1/2-inch barrels. This load effectively duplicates factory .45 Colt performance, shoots to point of aim with great accuracy. What's not to like?

 

[Model 15-4ever]

No commercial published data for the 255 SWC in the AR or ACP with Titegroup. I use Titegroup quite a bit in .45 ACP, but it doesn't give enough velocity for the effort with 255 grain SWC in the AR.

Instead, I used 6.5 grain of Universal which gave me 917 fps in a 4" S&W 22-4. The Sierra Manual lists 7.0 grains of Universal with a 240 JHP in .45 ACP revolver-only; since a lead bullet generally gives less pressure than a jacketed bullet with an equivalent powder charge, 6.5 grains with 255 SWC cast bullet appeared reasonable. The cases did not stick at all on extraction, and primers appeared normal. 6.0 grains gave me 834 fps and fired cases fell out without using the ejector rod.

Accuracy at 25 yards with that gun was in the 2.5 inch range, but the bottom of the group was 3" above point of aim. I think the 22-4 is sighted for 200-230 grain bullets.

 

[Gary]

Gary,
I'm not a big fan of Titegroup and hence my comment seemed a little blunt. Sorry 'bout that!

Unique would be a fine powder to try. What other powders do you have available? I'm telling you, SR4756 is the real deal in this caliber! It meters better than Unique but Unique will get you there too.

Have fun and be safe!

I have some Unique and HS6. Speer # 13 has loads for both of these powders so I will likely try them. I don't have any SR4756 but may pickup a pound of it to try as well.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Either one of those powders is going to give you a good round. If it were me, I wish Archangel was around to hear this, I would use the HS-6. I like the way it meters better. It isn't for reduced loads and a magnum primer may be needed but it is a good powder nonetheless.

If you need some loads for that, send me a pm and I'll give them to you. They most likely will be above the modern loads of today!

 

[Model 15-4ever]

I have found Titegroup to be a bit too hot burning for lead bullet loads. For light loads I prefer Trail Boss and for heavier loads American Select or Unique. At one time an older Speer or Lyman manual had loads for 45 AR wth 250-255 grain bullets.

I have to agree with this one. Titegroup seems to have a high flame temperature and is best with very light paper-target class loads, under 800 fps.

 

[grendelbane]

I am also looking for .45 AR data. Thanks for posting the page from Speer #8, Paul5388.

I am assuming, (always dangerous when re-loading!), that what they call a 240 grain cast lead semi-wadcutter is the same bullet that my Lyman 452423 mould produces. They call it 238 grain, my alloy usually comes in about 241. Their Unique loads are heavier even than what Elmer Keith used to recommend. I can probably get by with less than Keith's recommendation.

Re-creating all of these old loads is going to force me to buy some more Unique, I guess. Makes me feel young again.