45 Colt / 45 Auto Rim

pantannojack

pantannojack

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NOt at all happy with the over sized case of the 45 Colt cartridge, using todays low pressure powder charges, Red dot, 231, etc. And that I opened a bottle or Aliant Unique dated 1994 suffering low booms and sensitivity to powder position in case, up or down causing pressure spikes at historically satisfying charge of 8.5g under a 220g round nosed lead Lee mold drop sized .452. I think the powder needs to be fertilizer, I don't believe a mag primer would help, I tried over powder tissue stuffing to no remedy.

So if 38 spcl is good in a 357 mag chamber and a 44 spcl is good in a 44 mag chamber, Does a 45 Auto Rim sound usable in a 45 Colt chamber loaded appropriately? An opinions?
 
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If the revolver is conventionally chambered in 45 Colt, wouldn't the thick rim of the 45 AR be a problem? If it is used in a revolver converted to use moon clips, it should be OK. My M1917 converted to shoot 45 Colt with moon clips does OK with 45 AR as well as 45 ACP in moon/half moon clips.
 
You didn't say what revolver you are shooting, but I used 45 Scholfield cases in my Triple lock that was modified to 45 Colt by way of a shaved recoil shield. A couple of the chambers were short which required Colt 45 cases to be trimmed excessively, a real PIA. I had a smith touch up the chambers but until that was done the shorter Scholfield cases worked fine.
Midway has them on sale now at $18/100.

John
 
6.5 gr of Red Dot with a 250 gr bullet has been a sweet spot for me. It is dirty. There are not many case filling loads for that 45 Colt case unless you go black powder.
 
The rim is too thick on the 45 Auto-Rim to work properly .
But ... a good answer is 45 Cowboy Special ... a case that is basicly a short 45 Colt ... it has a 45 Colt rim but is the length of a 45 ACP case so you can use 45 ACP reloading dies to seat and crimp bullets ... a case can still be sized in 45 Colt sizer .
I'm surprised someone doesn't make a dedicated 45 Cowboy Special
3 or 4 Die Set ... it would be a good seller !
There may be a die set out there ... I haven't looked !
Gary
 
pantannojack said:
NOt at all happy with the over sized case of the 45 Colt cartridge, using todays low pressure powder charges, Red dot, 231, etc. And that I opened a bottle or Aliant Unique dated 1994 suffering low booms and sensitivity to powder position in case, up or down causing pressure spikes at historically satisfying charge of 8.5g under a 220g round nosed lead Lee mold drop sized .452. I think the powder needs to be fertilizer, I don't believe a mag primer would help, I tried over powder tissue stuffing to no remedy.

So if 38 spcl is good in a 357 mag chamber and a 44 spcl is good in a 44 mag chamber, Does a 45 Auto Rim sound usable in a 45 Colt chamber loaded appropriately? An opinions?
Click to expand...

been using Unique in 45LC for over 40 years.........8.5 gr behind my cast 250 gr bullet........NEVER a problem..........Your powder is deteriated.(sp)
 
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The older I get, the less interested in forcing something to fit, I am.

The 45 Colt was designed with and for black powder. Unless you're using BP, what you're trying to do is outside of the cartridge's design parameters. And Yes, I know it's been done for years. A lot of bad ideas persist.

A long time ago, a gentleman named Elmer Kieth switched from 45 Colt to 44 Special. That was a good idea then. It's a good idea now. You Officially have an excuse to buy another gun. Get going.
 
Yendor357 said:
The older I get, the less interested in forcing something to fit, I am.

The 45 Colt was designed with and for black powder. Unless you're using BP, what you're trying to do is outside of the cartridge's design parameters. And Yes, I know it's been done for years. A lot of bad ideas persist.

A long time ago, a gentleman named Elmer Kieth switched from 45 Colt to 44 Special. That was a good idea then. It's a good idea now. You Officially have an excuse to buy another gun. Get going.
Click to expand...

Your lone opinion............Against 10's of thousands of others.....Do you even own a 45LC?..........GEEZ!
 
I have used 231 in the 45 Colt for years and never found it to be position sensitive. Works great for me with my cast 255 grain bullets.
If anyone that trashes Unique wants to throw it out PM me and I will send my address and you can send it to me. I will dispose of it 8.5 grains at a time.
 
twodog max said:
I have used 231 in the 45 Colt for years and never found it to be position sensitive. Works great for me with my cast 255 grain bullets.
If anyone that trashes Unique wants to throw it out PM me and I will send my address and you can send it to me. I will dispose of it 8.5 grains at a time.
Click to expand...

I also have used Win 231 for "cowboy loads" in .45 Colt with 250 grain lead FN bullets. Works fine. I tested Win 231 for velocity variances depending on position in .38 Special long ago and it doesn't change. I pointed the gun up before 1 shot then down before the next, etc. Another reason I use W-231 for lots of cartridges and might have more than 1 pound…
 
I second the use of the .45 Schofield cases. They have almost the same relationship length wise to .45 Colt cases as do .38 and .44 Special to .357 and .44 Magnum. I have found .44 Special data to work well in the Schofield case as the two cases are only one grain apart in water capacity. Also the Schfield case having a slightly bigger diameter rim ejects well.
 
tennexplorer said:
I second the use of the .45 Schofield cases. They have almost the same relationship length wise to .45 Colt cases as do .38 and .44 Special to .357 and .44 Magnum. I have found .44 Special data to work well in the Schofield case as the two cases are only one grain apart in water capacity. Also the Schfield case having a slightly bigger diameter rim ejects well.
Click to expand...

Does the longer jump to the rifling cause velocity loss, accuracy loss, cruded up cylinders throats?.......I will just continue on like I have for the last forty years.
 
In an unmolested 45colt revolver 45 Schofield or Cowboy Special might solve your issues. Ive never noticed a problem with the shorter brass but then I'm not building target loads just minute of sass marshal loads. I prefer shotgun powder in my pistol loads, Red Dot, Clays, Clay Dot.
 
"Does the longer jump to the rifling cause velocity loss, accuracy loss, cruded up cylinders throats?.......I will just continue on like I have for the last forty years."

Not of any significance with the Schofield case in my experience. In fact I have found that the 250 grain Lyman 452424 over a .44 Special equivalent load of Unique to be extremely accurate.
 
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Yendor357 said:
The older I get, the less interested in forcing something to fit, I am.

The 45 Colt was designed with and for black powder. Unless you're using BP, what you're trying to do is outside of the cartridge's design parameters. And Yes, I know it's been done for years. A lot of bad ideas persist.

A long time ago, a gentleman named Elmer Kieth switched from 45 Colt to 44 Special. That was a good idea then. It's a good idea now. You Officially have an excuse to buy another gun. Get going.
Click to expand...

There are still a number of cartridges out there in common use that were designed for black powder that have transitioned very well to the smokeless era.

The .38-55 started out as a 1200-1300 fps black powder cartridge and transitioned to a 1600-1700 fps smokeless cartridge and in its modern form launches a 255 gr bullet at 1950

The .45-70 is a much more common example of a black powder round that is better than ever.

The .44-40, .38-40, .32-20 and .25-20 were all black powder rounds that have made a recent comeback and work well as smokeless rounds.

The .38 Special was designed in 1898 as an improved (longer) .38 Long Colt designed to hold a minimum of 21 grains of black powder. Yet is still a very common revolver cartridge 126 years later.

The .45 Colt has also proven to be a very flexible smokeless cartridge with 17,000, 21,000 and 32,000 psi load levels intended for stronger, modern firearm designs. Its major weakness is a black powder era tapered chamber that limits case life in the higher pressure loads. However it's un matched for its ability to manage very light to very stout loads.
 
Thanks, Guys for the discussion. I had use of .45 colt in the nineties with a Ruger Blackhawk 4.6". I actually won the time, against some 9mm auto shooters, of a metal target shoot of 8 targets including a 2 round reload. I traded it off for a 686 RB snub. I used 250g lead and 8.5 Unique. My can of Unique today must have gone soft, though it does not smell nor show reddish dust. I had never known of .45 Schofield or .45 Cowboy.
 
Here's a "Two Thumbs Up" Shout-Out for Unique.
It is one of the GREATEST smokeless propellants of all time.

Perfect for ALL straight wall, rimmed revolver cartridges of normal pressure levels.
Also, it works GREAT as a reduced load powder for bottleneck cast bullet loads. A light charge takes up little space in a 30-06 case, but still performs admirably. (If you're having erratic performance, there's other factors at play. It's not the powder, unless it's spoiled somehow.)

If I ever see it again, at reasonable prices, I'm buying a big keg and going home!
 
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Hoping I got it figured out. I have tight chamber throats, and bore in the Taylor smokewagon. My historic loads of 250g LSWC and 8.5g Unique as well as book and internet starting charges of 7g 231 are too strong for my 255g hard lead bullet. I backed off to 7.5g Unique, 5.5g Red Dot, and will never load 231 in .45 Colt again. Everyone knows to start low and slowly work up. In this case I must start below starting and stay there.
 
Mike said:
been using Unique in 45LC for over 40 years.........8.5 gr behind my cast 250 gr bullet........NEVER a problem..........Your powder is deteriated.(sp)
Click to expand...
For many, many years, Unique has been the go-to propellant for multitudes of shooters. Including me. So now it is garbage? No one told me about that.
 
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TheTinMan said:
I also have used Win 231 for "cowboy loads" in .45 Colt with 250 grain lead FN bullets. Works fine. I tested Win 231 for velocity variances depending on position in .38 Special long ago and it doesn't change. I pointed the gun up before 1 shot then down before the next, etc. Another reason I use W-231 for lots of cartridges and might have more than 1 pound…
Click to expand...

Interesting you say that. I'm not arguing your findings but I've found just the opposite. Following Hogdons loading data for minimum loads for HP38/231 I've had extreme variations in velocity in 38 special. Velocities varied 400+fps depending on position of the charge. In addition I had 2 bullets not make it out of the barrel, one in a Colt Cobra 2" and the other a Smith model 10. I've had similar results with 45acp. Mind you i'm talking minimum recommended loads. When you go above minimum loads it performs much better.

What I discovered was, not all of the powder is burning or failed to ignite in the 2 instances I had a bullet lodged in the barrel. I know there was powder in the case because when opening the cylinder burned powder poured out of the barrel.

What I wound up doing was going to Accurate #2 and Nitro100NF in 38 special. I experience very consistent results with both and lower recoil with #2. In addition both powders burn more completely and much cleaner in minimum loads.

In 45 Colt, HS6 and CFE pistol are worth trying. I've had excellent results with both.
 
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