45 Colt Load Question

[Cyrano]

I'm shooting 45 Colts out of a 625 Mountain Gun. I'm using the Lyman cast bullet 452464, 255 grs, cast somewhat soft. I'm using 7.2 grs of W 231, the max load listed in the Lyman Handbook. It gives very smoky cases and lots of unburned powder in the bore. This indicates to me that it's a very low pressure load. I imagine that Lyman has to consider the SAAs and other older guns that might not be safe with pressures that won't faze a 625. How much more can I increase the charge to eliminate the excessive case smoking and powder in the bore, without stretching the frame on the gun? I'm not trying for a max load, just one that will burn clean and will give a reasonable amount of accuracy and power.

When I bought it, I really wanted a 625 in 45 ACP, but now I have the 45 Colt, I realize it gives a lot more versatility and power. I can load the 45 ACP cast bullets of 175 gr SWC and get good accuracy for short range plinking, as well as much heavier loads for 'serious social purposes'. It also packs a lot more shot in shot cartridges for un-rattling the rattlers, which might be met at close range out in the desert here.

 

[john traveler]

Cyrano,

It's true that your smokey .45 Colt cases and unburned powder in the bore probably indicates lower than normal pressures for that combination of power and bullet. You can probably get away with a 0.1 or 0.2 grain increase in charge weight or more. However, other things can cause under pressures as well: undersized bullets, oversize chamber throats, light crimping, different brand of brass, etc.)

However, you can not (rather, I certainly would NOT) assume that the reloading book max loads apply to old SAA pressures. Upper pressure limits can be all over the map depending on when the testing and load development took place, pressure measuring equipment used, the laboratory and ballistic technician doing the work, etc. I just checked my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook Third Edition and it doesn't even list WW 231 for that bullet.

Some handloaders are quick to state that the S&W M625 is rated to 25,000 psi, which is much higher than the SAAMI standard for .45 Colt of about 18,000 psi. The problem of course, is that varying even a single factor (such as bullet hardness, diameter, primer, crimping, seating depth, firing temperature, etc) is enough to change the chamber pressure by several thousands of psi. A safe load near the maximum pressure rating can be pushed into proof pressure ranges without even trying very hard.

Another questionable assumption is that the M625 and M629 are identical except for caliber, and therefore the .45 Colt can be loaded much hotter since the gun is suitable for the mighty .44 Magnum cartridge. This is simply NOT true!

Some of the most impressive handloading "accident" photos are those of a like-new S&W revolver with the top strap and upper three cylinders blown completely off. They are more than enough to keep my already cautious and conservative loading practices even more cautious and conservative.

An alternative to upping the WW321 charge weight is to switch to another powder and charge weight. Red Dot, Green Dot, Bullseye, Unique, and several others give excellent performance in the .45 Colt.

A disadvantage of the old blackpowder era .45 Colt case is that it is cavernous, and very subject to double or even triple charging errors, which of course, is disastrous. May I suggest that you consider a bulkier powder for similar performance in the old warhorse.

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, FWIW, I'd be leery of increasing the charge much with a fast-burning powder like 231. You might consider switching to a medium burn rate powder like Unique, HS-6, or Herco. Unique burns dirty in powder-puff loads, but cleans up nicely as you approach the top of the data. Same with HS-6. I haven't tried Herco, but some folks swear by it in .45 Colt.

Some people, most notably John Linebaugh, have loaded Smith .45 Colts very hot, but the big loads will make them rattly if you run too many. Again FWIW, I like my 25-9 too much to subject it to much over 900 fps with a cast 250.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[tdan]

I believe you would be better served using Universal or Unique for those 255gr. LSWC's in your 45 Colt loads. I'll bet you are also annoyed with those dirty extracted cases with powder burn streaks down the side. Like most folks you are full length sizing your brass before loading......right?

Try this...........Adjust your sizing die to only size the top third of the case, the area your bullet of choice will be seated in. You need to be using a die that has an adjustable de-cap rod so that your old primers still get punched out. Your reloads should still chamber easily, and if you have a proper roll crimp, the bullets will not jump crimp. I use this same sizing technique on almost all of my revolver rounds. I believe that I get somewhat better cartridge/chamber throat alignment which results in better overall accuracy, plus I'm not working the brass as much. I liken this to the regimen of neck-sizing rifle rounds for maximum accuracy.

Try some loads with Universal and this sizing regimen. Then let us know if your loads are cleaner burning and more accurate.

By the way, some excess "smoke" may be caused by the type/amount of bullet lube on your cast lead. I will defer to the bullet casting experts on what lubes are the cleanest burning.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

There is a lot of misinformation and just plain BS that goes around the websites regarding the 25-5/625 series of guns.

I own several 25's and my regular shooting load for them is 8.0 grains of 231 under a 255-265 grain lead FPRN, or the 452424. It is a fine and safe load. It'll run right around 900 FPS from my 4" gun. I got that load from John Taffin's book "Big Bore Handguns". It is listed on page 92 at the top in the section "Pleasure Loads for the 25-5", which if you read the book, you will know means that these aren't top end loads by any stretch. Just fun shooting loads.

My Hodgdon manual #26 on page 719 lists 7.5 grains of 231 under a 260 grain bullet as giving740 FPS and is running15,900 CUP, which is at the top for a SAA, but no where near what a 25-5 will be safe with.

Get a back issue copy of Handloader # 217 from Wolffe Publishing. The single best article on loading the different strength level platforms for the .45 Colt is in that issue, and is written by Brian Pearce. On Page 40 there is pressure tested data that shows a variety of powders that will be perfect for your application.

I have used many of them and they work as stated in the text. 12.5 grains of HS-6 is shown under a 454424 255 SWC as delivering 1,113 FPS from a 5.5" bbl.
I got right at 1,000 FPS from my 4" 25-5, and almost exactly the same as shown in the article from my 5.5" Blackhawk. That load is in the section for loads running 16,000- 19,000 PSI BTW, and is well under what the 25-5 will take.

I have also used the old Keith load of 18.5 grains of 2400 under the 454424, which is also listed in that article, and it runs 1,050 FPS from my 4" 25-5. It is running 23,000 PSI, and is a top load, but still safe in any sound 25-5/625.

REMEMBER THIS! The 25-5 and 25-2 have the exact same dimensions as far as chamber wall thickness, frames etc., and the 25-2 is rated for +P loads by S&W, and they run 23,000 PSI, so the 25-5 is safe for sure to that level.

Here is some good reading from someone who knows more than any of us internet posters. Read this and learn.

Go to the bottom of this one and look for "Notes on the Smith and Wesson"
Linebaugh's Custom Sixguns - Heavyweight Bullets

and this-
Gunnotes...Smith & Wesson Mod 25-5

 

[Dale53]

Gun4fun is spot on. I just recently became the owner of a new Ruger SS Bisley Convertible, so have been through the literature recently.

Hodgdon was the first source I went to and Gun4fun is right on.

There should be NO problem upping your charge to 8.0 grs (I'd go up .5 grs at at time until I was happy with it and not to exceed 8.0 grs). You're just loading too light for clean burning.

Just so you know, I am a CONSERVATIVE reloader.

Dale53

 

[lafayne]

I highly recommend Trail Boss for light to mid range loads. For heavier loads I use Unique.

 

[Cyrano]

WOW!! Talk about food for thought; I'll chew on these for a while and let you know what hapens. I have read what Linebaugh has to say, thanks to Guns-4-Fun's previous posts but was a little leery about just cramming all that powder into a 45 Colt case. Thanks, all, very much.

 

[tdan]

Here's another powder you might wish to consider......Titegroup. The reason I mentioned this is that I picked up some 45 Colt ammo from my local reloading components supplier(Space Coast bullets........well deserved plug). I was really looking for some new 45 Colt brass, but his new loads for the 255gr. LSWC that I shoot are fairly priced, so I picked up a bag of 50(now I have 50 once fired cases for future use). These were great loads!

While they chronographed at a leisurely 815 fps avg., they were amazingly consistent.........5 shot strings within 12fps out of a 5" barrel and very accurate. I just had to give the shop a call and inquire about this load. They are using 6.2 gr. of Titegroup. This is a very low pressure load from looking at Hodgdon's load data. I will be looking to see what a slightly larger charge of this powder will produce as to velocity. They say that Titegroup is a powder that is designed to not be case position sensitive in large capacity cases. My chrono seems to bear that out! Being a spherical powder, this powder should meter extremely well in most powder measures.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

A heavy roll crimp helps a bit.

 

[Smithhound]

#1 on what VulcanBob said, also great info from Gun4Fun, in my experience a lite roll crimp will leave unburned powder and smoke the cases up alot.
.45 Colt is one of my favorite cartridges to reload.
RD

 

[Cyrano]

Well, I've ben experimenting...without a lot of success. The only thing that reduced smoking was a heavy crimp. Thanks, Vulcan Bob.
I stock three powders that were listed in the Lyman 48th Reloading Handbook: Win 231, Alliant Unique and Accurate Arms #5. I started with the maximum load listed in the handbook and went up from there. This is NOT my usual approach to using loaing tables.
I tried 7.2 and 7.9 grs of W 231. Cases were smoky at 7.2 and somewhat less but not much at 7.9. Recoil was heavy at 7.9. I wouldn't want to feed the revolver a steady diet of this. 8.5 grs of Unique gave some unburned powder in the bore and very smoky cases. 9.0 gave smoky cases. My impression, firing offhand at 25 yds, was that Unique was less acurate than 231. 10.4 grs of AA#5 gave very smoky cases; 11.3 grs gave smoky cases and heavy recoil. Another load I wouldn't want to use all the time. It too, appeared less acurate than 231. None of the loads gave any indication of high pressure: primers were not flat and cases simply fell out of the chambers, however I think I would be beating up the revolver too much with continued use of the heavier loads.
I may have to go to a new powder. Brian Pierce has an article on reloading the 45 Colt in the current issue of The Handloader, but I don't stock either of the powders he mentions.
I may have been barking up the wrong tree. I should be looking at how the cowboy action shooters approach loading the 45 Colt and increase my loads from there if I want to. Anybody out there have any good cowboy action loads for the 255 gr bullet?

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

What issue of Handloader are you referring to? I have every issue going back for several years, and Pearce hasn't penned an article on the .45 Colt in any of the recent issues, unless it is for the December issue, which I haven't received.

If you keep having trouble with smoky cases, you may have oversized chambers (not throats), and with the rather low pressure rounds you are using, they just can't swell up enough to seal the case against the chamber wall. That is a common problem with Ruger Blackhawks BTW.

The load of 7.9 grains of 231 isn't a hot load by any stretch. It doesn't hurt to be cautious, buy there is no need to buy into all the BS that keeps floating around about how weak guns other than Rugers are when chambered in .45 Colt. Your N frame will last indefinately with that load. I have been shooting it for years, and my guns are as tight as the day I bought them.

I shoot them regularly in these two right here-
25-7-

25-5-

I also shoot the Keith load in them.

I also shoot 23 grains of H-110 in them using 255-265 grain cast bullets. That load is pressure tested at 23,000 PSI, published in Handloader #217 by Brian Pearce, and is quite safe in any 25/625 in sound working condition.
Don't try to judge how warm you think a load is by recoil. You said that the 7.9/231 load had heavy recoil. To me it is extremely comfortable at 8.0 gr of 231. Neither is any indicator of pressure, or how warm a load is.

 

[Cyrano]

Hi, Guns-4-Fun, Yes it's the December issue. The article is entitled 3 Sixgun Cartridges, and he covers the 45 Colt, 44 Special and 44 Magnum. He mentions loads with Alliant Red Dot and Hodgdon Longshot, neither of which I stock. I was wrong; he also mentions 9.0 grs of Unique which smoked my cases pretty bad. My 625 has the MIM parts and lock, so it's a late one; I would be surprised if the chambers were oversized. It strikes me, that I'm probably using powders a little too slow for the ratio of case volume to bore diameter, which might account for the difficulty in getting good obturation. I'd still like to try some cowboy loads to see if they work any better.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

It sounds like you are on the right track in getting the loads to perform the way you want. Good luck.

 

[Cyrano]

Some new developments: I tried the Mountain Gun off a rest at 25 yds using Win 231 powder and the Lyman 452424 bullet. Shooting 10 round groups, the first load was 7.2 grs. It cut one ragged hole about 1 1/2 inch across. Then I tried 7.6 grs; the group was a lot larger and there were several fliers including a couple down at 7 O'Clock. Next was 7.9grs; the group was even larger and there were more fliers, including a few at 7 O'Clock. I used 7.2 and 7.9 grs because that is what the #12 and #13 rotors throw in the RCBS Little Dandy powder measure, which is indescribably easy and fast to use. Nobody ever called me lazy.

There might be two explanations for the groups getting larger. Perhaps the bullets are too soft. I was using an alloy of 1 part type metal to two parts lead. However 7 O'Clock is "jerker's corner" and perhaps I'm jerking the trigger with the stronger recoil. I've cast some bullets up using a harder alloy: 1 to 1, type metal to lead. I'll try those and see what happens.

 

[chriske]

I got best results from 7.5 Gr of W-231 with bullets of that weight.
In my experience, .45 (sometimes called "Long") Colt is not the easiest cartridge to load for, though, probably due tot the size of the shell.

 

[perrazi]

trail boss in these makes a nice shooting load. not fast but quite pleasant and easy on the both the gun and shooter.

 

[sonny]

Another questionable assumption is that the M625 and M629 are identical except for caliber, and therefore the .45 Colt can be loaded much hotter since the gun is suitable for the mighty .44 Magnum cartridge. This is simply NOT true!

Is this difference just a matter of heat-treating of the N-frames and cylinders? I haven't read any decent discussion of this matter and don't know where to find the information. I guess it's all cloak and dagger by Smith.
Sonny