4516 No dash long term evaluation.

18DAI

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I picked up a LNIB 4516 no dash over the holidays. Back this past summer I asked a local dealer I do business with to keep an eye out for a clean 4516 no dash for me. In November he called to tell me he had an "unfired since the factory 4516 no dash come in."

He is primarily a Colt dealer and has sold me some very nice S&W handguns. This 4516 no dash, while in excellent, like new condition, has indeed been fired a bit. The previous owner placing an inspectors sticker back on the frame prior to trading it in. No matter, it is an excellent "random" specimen to do a test I've been thinking about for some time. I intend to "test" the reliability of the 4516 no dash under "average Joe" conditions. For a year, I will regularly shoot this 4516 no dash with different typoes of ammunition, different types of 4516 mags and under as many different conditions as I can manage.

Now be advised that this won't be one of those gunrag torture tests or internet "how many rounds till a breakage occurs" tests. This will simply be testing the reliability and durability of the 4516 no dash model under condtions likely encountered by everyone on this sub board. I will do my usual maintenance and report any issues encountered while shooting this 4516.

The gun is a 1989 TCS prefix 4516 no dash. It came with the original box, Hogue grips intalled, original Xenoy grip in the box, manual, cleaning kit (still in the bag) and 6 magazines. Three with red followers, two with yellow followers and one with a black follower. Interestingly, the early mags with the red followers are stamped "For use only in 4516 Not for use in 4516-1". I hadn't seen that before. I have come across 4516 magazines with yellow followers stamped "For use in 4516-1 only" previously. I intend to shoot this 4516 no dash with every 7-round S&W 45 mag I have. I also intend to try it with the 8-round mags of its cousins too.

This 4516 no dash has a bushing in the slide, narrow guide rod and the dual recoil spring set up. As member catshooter has related to us, all the 4516 no dash models had the dual recoil spring set up.

My intentions are as follows. I will clean and lube the 4516 tonight. I will check the recoil springs and replace if needed. Then I will gather a few boxes of 230 grain 45 ammunition from different manufacturers, both ball & JHP's and run them through it on Saturday. A friend has some old WWII ball he is bringing me and I've also got a coffee can of old discarded 45 rounds to run through the 4516 as well. I anticipate 300 or 400 rounds for the first range trip. This should be more than enough for an initial indication of this examples reliability. If all goes well, then I will qualify with it and carry it. I also intend to shoot a few IDPA matches with it to see how it performs. If all goes as planned, I figure that this time next year, the 4516 no dash will have between 1500 and 2000 rounds through it.

Why bother? Well, I and several others have had very good experiences with the 4516 no dash model. I have also read quite a few accounts from members who had bad experiences with their no dash 4516's. Several folks here and elsewhere, who's opinions I respect, have advised that the 4516 no dash model should "be avoided in favor of later revisions", or "used only as a collectors piece." So I am curious as to how a "pristine, out of the box", properly maintained 4516 no dash will actually perform.

I have a lot of time behind a 4516 and a lot of rounds down range through the model. The majority of it on a late production 4516-3. My experience with an abused confiscated 4516 no dash is what started my interest in this model of compact 45.

The 4516 no dash is the most often disparaged 4516, IMO. So I thought I'd do an unscientific "test" to see how "bad" it actually is. Stay tuned. Regards 18DAI
 
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18DAI loving his 4516s and rightfully so!

I'll anxiously await your findings and pics of course.
 
18DAI,
I'm looking forward to your evaluations of the 4516 no dash. I've come to really look forward to your posts regarding 3rd gens.

I bought a 4516-2 new in 1996. I've never liked the gun all that much. Not because of reliability issues such as FTF or FTE. I've never had one with this gun. My problem is that my accuracy is pretty bad with this gun in comparison with other 45s. Based on your posts and others, I bought a 4506 no dash. I am elated with my purchase. My/Its accuracy is excellent. I come home from the range pleased with myself and the gun.

On the other hand the 4516-2 has been a frustrating experience. All of my groups are high and right. When I compensate the groups are acceptable, but who wants to compensate? Anyway, I'm really looking forward to your shooting evaluations of the 4516 even though yours is a no dash.
 
Looking forward to it. Would like to hear how accurate it is compared to your other .45's.
 
My intentions are as follows. I will clean and lube the 4516 tonight. I will check the recoil springs and replace if needed.

This should be an interesting project which I'll follow closely, thanks for taking time to share it with us, 18DAI.

Let me ask the first question - how do we check recoil springs on a new gun when there is no history - no round count or age to go by? And just for a difficulty factor, with a double spring setup I suppose it is possible that the springs could be of different ages, too.

Not trying to sharpshoot you, but without some sort of spring testing gauge is this possible?
 
I'm looking forward to hearing your reports with the 4516. I had one once and traded it off before I had much of a chance to really use it. … and I can't think of a better person for the test drive - your reports have always been just that - straight reporting. Have fun!

Jerry
 
There is a problem.....

A few problems actually. I had to work late last last night. By the time I got to take down the 4516 for cleaning I was tired. When I picked it up at the shop I gave it a function check and a pretty good looking over. It appeared to be in excellent condition and function was 100%. I don't get excited about guns anymore.........well.....except for that 4 inch full lug PC 14-6 I came across at a gunshow a few years back.......so I was pretty thorough, I thought I was anyway.

When I took it down last night I noticed a few things. This 4516 has been worked on. Modified a bit. It may have even been back to the factory.....I'm not sure how one could tell that definitively.......but I have a strong suspicion.

The extractor has been replaced. The original guide rod has also been replaced with a late production one piece (non staked) guide rod. The recoil springs were brand new and still had all their blue paint. And perhaps the worst news is that it appears, to me, that somebody throated the barrel. Not very well either. I'm still looking at photos on the net (including the excellent pics provided by BMCM in another thread) to determine whether this was done in the factory, by a gunsmith, or at someones kitchen table with a Dremel.

Now upon observing these things I asked myself; "myself, why would someone replace an extractor, a guide rod and throat a barrel?" Well, I would do those things if I was experiencing FTF's and/or FTE's. So, was this one of those problematic 4516 no dash that I've read about on the gunboards? If so, did the owner send it back to S&W for them to correct it? And if I'm correct in my assumptions, is this 4516 no dash a candidate for a reliability test of a pristine example?

If it has been modified, as it appears to have been, then I think that will skew any results of my already unscientific "test". In any case, I cannot consider this particular 4516 no dash an unmodified random sample. Because it isn't.

Here is why I think so. The time this 4516 was built, 1989, S&W still paid attention to details. Generally, the extractors were finished in the same brushed satin finish as the rest of the slide. The one on my gun is highly polished, in contrast to the rest of the finish on the slide. Also, when someone replaces an extractor, it is almost impossible not to mar the finish in the hole where the pin sits. There are marks in the finish over the pin where it looks like a punch was inserted.

IIRC The guide rods with the staked heads were OEM at the time this gun was made. The later "one piece" guide rods, without the staked heads, did not come about until the late 90's or early 2000's IIRC. I think they were made after the advent of the TSW series.

The throating on the barrel I'm not sure about. This gun has some tool marks in the frame. I suppose it could be a poorly manufactured barrel........but the feed ramp is one of the nicest I've seen on a third gen pistol. Not a mark on it. Unusual, as I've often had to polish feed ramps on my 3rd gen 45's. The barrel throat appears to be relieved more to the left side than on the right side. There were also two light tool marks. One on each side, just above the relieved area. I'm looking at more pictures today and will compare them to my barrel tonight.

I'm still going to shoot it a bunch on Saturday and report back. I'm also going to stop and see my friend Ken at the LGS and let him examine it. He was a S&W dealer when these 4516's were first introduced. What he has forgotten about the 4516 series of guns I will never even know. I will see what his opinion is before I shoot it.

This gun has also been fired a bit. It was not carried at all, hence the like new appearance. The previous owner putting the inspectors sticker back on the frame was disingenuous. I'd guess around 500 rounds based on my experience with 3rd gen pistols. The lug on the barrel is shiny. The shiny ring that forms around the muzzle of the barrel at more than 400 rounds is starting to be apparent, though not well formed. The "square" that forms on top of the tang, just behind the hammer, at around 500 rounds is just starting to appear. So, not a brand new gun, "unfired since the factory." So what do y'all think? Still continue with a long term "test"?

Enough bad news. Here is the good news. :) This 4516 no dash reminded me of why I became enamoured with the design in the first place. It is THIN! 1911 thin. It actually fit a couple of my old 1911 holsters too. Also fit my 59XX series holsters as well. It was a little loose in the JIT slide for the 4513TSW.

It isn't very heavy at all. Especially after carrying 4506-1's and 4566's as well as the 4516-3 around for the last decade. It is slightly heavier loaded than a loaded 7 round 4513TSW. Not that much though. If I get down to property next week with both models I will put them on the digital scales and list the exact difference.

It POINTS! :) Old revolver guys will know what I mean by that. ;) This 4516 no dash is lively in the hand. It handles easily and pints quickly and naturally.......with the Hogue grips installed, for me. Points as well, for me, as a 4 inch K-frame.

I can't wait to shoot it. I haven't looked forward as much to shooting a particular gun in some time. I'm hoping this gun shoots a good as it looks and feels. Sort of reminds me of my 3913 and 3906. Very thin and just the right size and weight for a carry gun.

Oh, Hill_Country, to answer your question. I have new in the bag springs for my S&W 45XX series guns. The way I test to see if they need repacement, in the compact guns, is to lay the springs in the gun out alongside the new springs. If the used outer spring has a 1/4 inch or more set to it, I replace it. I think member Fastbolt taught us that rule of thumb.

I don't know any other way to test if springs need replacing except to watch for certain failures to occur in the guns function. Perhaps BMCM or Fastbolt can provide more info.

I will report back Monday on how this 4516 no dash performed on its initial outing with me. Hopefully, it will take a jack hammer to get the smile off my face. ;)

Please let me know if y'all think continuing with the extended test will have any value, given the developements with this pistol. Maybe I just need to find a truly NIB example before conducting such an evaluation. Hey, any excuse will do to buy another, right? ;) Regards 18DAI
 
I'm wondering about your guiderod. Thing is, I've never seen a 0.236" (skinny) guiderod that wasn't solid one piece stainless. While the fat (0.290") ones come in several varieties ie. staked steel & aluminum and solid steel, I've only seen the slim ones as solid stainless.

I remember seeing a post about guiderods some time back and it took a bit of forum rummageing 'till I found it. post #28 by Fastbolt in this thread. Only the skinny one is non-staked one piece.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/242450-3rd-gen-obsolete.html#post136442436

AFAIK, the no-dash guns were equipped with the nested spring set from the beginning which leads me to believe your guiderod could be original.

Does your extractor look anything like either of these?
IMG_7123.jpg

I've got several around here with extractors that nowhere near match the slide finish. Most commonly I see shiny brushed on the extractor flat and satin bead-blast on the slide. Of course punch marks around the pin are evidence of someone messing with it or at least an attempt to. Take a close look a the extractor hook. Use a loupe if you have one and look for signs that it's been messed with. Compared to your other 45's can you see anything different? Polishing? Evidence of filing or dremeling?. Aside from replacing a broken extractor the only other reason to remove it would be to adjust the tension by in effort to correct a function problem.

Could very well be that it did go back to S&W for some work. Is not S&W required to keep records of guns that come in for work? Might be worth the time sitting on hold to speak to S&W and see.

Cheers
Bill
 
18DAI, thanks for taking us through the process you go through with a new weapon - I never fail to learn something new from your reports.

While the original test goals may have shifted a bit, I hope you'll continue to share your experience with this new pistol as you get to know it. This thread is already a good example of the little bits of knowledge which you and Bill take for granted, but which many of us will benefit from in the future.

Thanks and keep it coming.
 
FWIW, my 4516-1's extractor (1991) is shiny like the top slide in BMCM's picture. When I first got mine & stripped it down to inspect/clean it, I considered removing the extractor to check/clean under it as this was a area our Ruger SRxxC's have seemed to accumulate debris in, but after looking closer I decided not to. Maybe your previous owner was so motivated?

No matter which way you go on this, let us know how it performs in regular use.
 
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18,

What an excellent test!

What a pity the pistol may have been altered and has indeed been fired.

I can agree with every word that BMCM has posted. All of my no dashes had extractors brushed like his in the pic. The punch marks around it may, or may not be evidence of it's removal. Maybe the last owner thought to remove it to clean behind it, tried, discovered that it wasn't as easy as he first thought and quit while he was still ahead.

We are sorely testing my memory here, but as I recall on all the no dashes I've owned the recoil spring guides were all one piece. Of a sort. On the end that seats on the barrel there was a staked in spring loaded pin. Small diameter with two nested springs.

I would agree with your round count assessment. Pity but oh well. Five hundred rounds certainly won't hurt it, just a good start on it's break in.

Without pics ( :) ) it's hard to tell about the feed ramp.

At any rate I'm all in favor of your test and think it's a great idea. I haven't seen a no dash in many years and would love to find one.


Cat
 
I'm lookin forward to this! I just found a 4516 no dash at a local pawn shop, but am holdin off till 18DAI shoots his!

I remember Massad Ayoob doing a test in one and how he stated that Smith might have screwed up the reliable .45 on the planet by makin it smaller.
So I'm grabbin some hot dogs and a few beers, and am waitin patiently...
Dale
 
341 Flawless shots fired. :)

All went well Saturday with the 4516 no dash. I fired 341 one consecutive rounds without failure. Here is a breakdown of what I used. All were 230 grain.

100 rounds Federal
100 rounds WWB
35 rounds PMC
28 rounds Winchester Ranger RA45T
50 rounds unknown manufacturer WWII vintage
28 rounds mixed (Hydra-shok, Golden Sabres, Speer Gold Dot, Speer Lawman.

I used all the original mags that came with the gun plus two of my 7-round range mags and my 7-round "carry mag" with the rounded 4513TSW baseplate installed on it.

It was EXTREMELY cold Saturday AM here. Colder than charity. The Crown Vic said it was 23 but the RO and weatherman both said 19. Anyways it was real cold. I use TW23b grease so I didn't anticipate any problems with freezing lubricants and experienced no troubles.

The trigger in DA was smooth but stacks a little at the end. In SA it was crisp and a bit light. Twice I inadvertantly fired a second shot when I had not intended to, while coming out of recoil. I've had that happen with a Walther PPQ I owned, but never with any S&W....other than that shield I tested.

I shot the 4516 every which way including loose trying to cause a malfunction. Fast, slow, limp wristing, light hold, upside down, mixed different rounds (ball and JHP) in an old weak mag, one handed, with gloves on, nothing phased it. It just ran and ran well.

Ejection was a little weak, IMO. The brass kind of piled up right around my right foot (I'm a lefty).

Accuracy was good, although by the time I started shooting for accuracy my hands were getting numb and I had gloves on. Also the range pulley system was acting up and would not go beyond around 12 yards. Best group was around two inches at 7 yards, in slow fire, with the RA45T. No surprise to me as all my 3rd gen 45's like that round best.

I did do two 5X5X5 drills using the 4516. This is where you place a 5X5 target at five feet from you and dump 5 rounds into the 5X5 square in 5 seconds or less. Its a good measurement of a carry guns utility and accuracy. Also a good measure of the shooters ability to control his carry gun.

On the first try I missed low twice and high once. On the second I missed low once and high/right once. But again, it was VERY cold, I had been at it for over 90 minutes and was pretty much numb all over. So it was definitely me, not the gun. In fact at that point I was regretting doing this and ready for my "test" to be over for the day. ;)

I did find that the 4516 no dash had substantial felt recoil, for me, using basically all the rounds I fired. Federal 230 grain ball being the least...... objectionable........noticeable. Perhaps it was the cold, or the gloves, or a combination of both. but in any case my hand swelled up Saturaday afternoon and ached enough that I took an Advil. I have a visible bruise today, right where the tang kept pushing back into my hand. The 4516 no dash was wearing rubber Hogues.

So, all and all I think that 341 rounds is enough to pronounce any gun reliable. Were I inclined I would have no problem putting tis 4516 no dash into a holster for use on or off duty. That said, I will be keeping my 4506-1, 4566 and 4513TSW V1 as my on and off duty guns.

I shoot the big 45's better (faster follow up shots and more accurately) than this particular 4516 and I prefer the 4513TSW V1, even though it is slightly thicker, as my favorite carry gun. I have carried this particular 4513TSW V1 for over a year now. Almost everyday, on and off duty and fired in slight excess of 1500 rounds through it in 2013. 100% reliable and accurate. Light weight, easily concealed, decock only with Novak Night sights. Great little pistol. Perhaps I will do another thread on my experiences with that particular example.

Someone asked me to rate this gun as to its accuracy in comparison to my other S&W 45's. Keeping in mind that I've only shot it this one time and with limited tests for accuracy, here you go.

PC Shorty 45 MKII
Melonite 4566
4506-1 (dash 3)
4516-3
4513TSW 7-round rail free
PC 4563 45CQB prototype
4513TSW V1
4516 no dash
PC 4566 45CQB
4566 LE trade in

Your mileage may vary and probably should. ;) This rating by me is based on a comparison of best groups, from the above listed guns, shot on 3 inch Shoot-N-See targets, by me, at 10 yards, using RA45T, that I've collected and kept over the last three years or so.

Thanks for the info BMCM and Catshooter! :) My extractor does indeed look like the ones pictured.

I also should have used better terminology when describing the guide rod. It is a stainless steel guide rod and it is "one piece" as all S&W 3rd gen guide rods are. :) Where it differs from the OEM 4516 no dash guide rod is in the fact that it is not staked at the head with the four dimples as original 4516 no dash guide rods were.

It is from later manufacture, likely post 1997 in my recollection. No matter as the gun functioned flawlessly.

Badkarma 1 - Buy it, shoot it, love it. :) I will anxoiusly wait for your range report so perhaps we can compare notes.

I will continue to shoot the 4516 no dash periodically and report back here, for those who are interested in a longer term performance "test". Regards 18DAI
 
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