4516 No dash long term evaluation.
- Thread starter 18DAI
- Start date
Kadonny
Member
Thanks 18ADI, you are a stronger man than me spending that much time out in the frigid cold. I could have probably done a half hour to 45 minutes, but not double that. I see you are even in NC, that must have been pretty cold for that far south.
Overall though it's really nice to hear that even the no dash's are capable of running reliably. I know it was only a couple of hundred rounds, but in those condition and consecutively makes it impressive.
I look forward to future reads and results, thanks.
Overall though it's really nice to hear that even the no dash's are capable of running reliably. I know it was only a couple of hundred rounds, but in those condition and consecutively makes it impressive.
I look forward to future reads and results, thanks.
Hill_Country
Member
I don't think that was the kind of endurance testing you originally had in mind, but impressive that both the gun and shooter continued to function in those conditions.
nocents
Member
holy cow...341 rounds of .45....
.....good man....and I thought I was doing well with at 172 round test of 9mm....INSIDE......and I was wore out.....you made me feel like a wimp
.....good man....and I thought I was doing well with at 172 round test of 9mm....INSIDE......and I was wore out.....you made me feel like a wimpCatshooter
Member
Your test has turned out about as I expected. I started buying '16s in about 1990 and ended up with four or five of the little gems. Please keep up the test, I like it.
I couldn't even begin to guess at the number of rounds fired through them. I cast and reload my own 45s and have done so since about '73 and I like to shoot.
None of them ever, ever failed. I used every mag Smith built for them too, completely mixed and matched. They fed everything, usually semi-wadcutters like the H&G 68 or Lyman 452424.
The Lyman was my favorite. Heavy, it usually came in at about 255 grains. Eight hundred feet per second was easy to get and accuracy was always right there. Hits like the hammer of Thor.
I did find the pistols a bit heavy, but I sure like the all steel construction. Tough, tough, tough. I ended up replacing them all with Shorty 45s. Wish I'd kept a few though now.
Cat
I couldn't even begin to guess at the number of rounds fired through them. I cast and reload my own 45s and have done so since about '73 and I like to shoot.
None of them ever, ever failed. I used every mag Smith built for them too, completely mixed and matched. They fed everything, usually semi-wadcutters like the H&G 68 or Lyman 452424.The Lyman was my favorite. Heavy, it usually came in at about 255 grains. Eight hundred feet per second was easy to get and accuracy was always right there. Hits like the hammer of Thor.
I did find the pistols a bit heavy, but I sure like the all steel construction. Tough, tough, tough. I ended up replacing them all with Shorty 45s. Wish I'd kept a few though now.
Cat
4516-0
Concerning the brass landing at your feet, I gotta figure what I'm doing wrong (I hate chasing brass) but even with a 19# recoil spring my 4516-1 sends them a lane or two over, unless it bounces off my head first.
That was pretty gung-ho shooting that many rounds in the cold. I can see why your hand was unhappy about it.
Keep us updated.
Concerning the brass landing at your feet, I gotta figure what I'm doing wrong (I hate chasing brass) but even with a 19# recoil spring my 4516-1 sends them a lane or two over, unless it bounces off my head first.
That was pretty gung-ho shooting that many rounds in the cold. I can see why your hand was unhappy about it.
Keep us updated.
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Thanks all! I'm almost thawed out. 
Catshooter, I have pretty much replaced my 4516's with 4513TSW's and only because I want to keep wear and tear off my Shorty 45 MKII. Or I would just carry it. Great pistols. I was thinking last night that the only way to improve on the little 4513TSW V1 would be to make the slide thinner, like the 4516 no dash slide.
BLUEDOT37, All of my S&W 3rd gen 45's toss brass alot further than this 4516 no dash does. I'm thinking there may have been a reason for the previous owner to remove the extractor afterall. I will be keeping an eye on its extraction pattern in the next range session. Regards 18DAI
I'm almost thawed out. Catshooter, I have pretty much replaced my 4516's with 4513TSW's and only because I want to keep wear and tear off my Shorty 45 MKII. Or I would just carry it. Great pistols. I was thinking last night that the only way to improve on the little 4513TSW V1 would be to make the slide thinner, like the 4516 no dash slide.
BLUEDOT37, All of my S&W 3rd gen 45's toss brass alot further than this 4516 no dash does. I'm thinking there may have been a reason for the previous owner to remove the extractor afterall. I will be keeping an eye on its extraction pattern in the next range session. Regards 18DAI
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
A very through wright up 18DAI, and I'll see if that '16 no dash is still at the pawn shop, right after I get down my driveway, 15+ inches of snow and I don't feel like shovelin!
If I get it, I shall wring it out, try some of the 185gr. stuff and see how it runs.
While were at it, can I use regular 645/4506 mags in it?
Dale
If I get it, I shall wring it out, try some of the 185gr. stuff and see how it runs.
While were at it, can I use regular 645/4506 mags in it?
Dale
BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I have M-4516 no dash number TCP1804. I bought it NIB as soon as they came out, it was the first one that my local S&W distributor/law enforcement products dealer got, in November, 1989.
I put 250 rounds of W-W hardball through it on it's first outing. It ran faultlessly. Being all steel construction, it is fairly heavy for it's size and I didn't find recoil objectionable.
Over the next 2 years, my department transitioned from revolvers to semiauto pistols after a new sheriff was elected. We were given a pretty broad choice of guns to pick from, in 9mm, 10mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, choosing between S&W second and third generation guns (they wanted the firing pin lock), Glock, Colt (Series 80 or newer, again for the firing pin lock), Berretta, Sig-Sauer and Ruger. As one of the department's "gun cranks" pushing for the transition, having a lot of the guns being considered, and also pushing to keep a wide range of approved choices available, I organized a lot of range trips to let fellow deputies try them out to see what they liked. A fair number of assorted ammo of all makers and styles was fired through my 4516 by an assortment of deputies.
I can only remember witnessing one stoppage with the 4516. A fellow had loaded it with .40 S&W cartridges by mistake. It fired the first round but the badly deformed case didn't cycle all the way out of the gun. A change to the correct cartridges, and all was well again.
All-in-all, I shot, and saw shot, about 750-1,000 rounds through my gun with just that one failure. I haven't shot the gun since about 1992, having gone in the 1911 direction with my own choice of duty and off-duty pistols.
Not a high mileage test, but I would carry my 4516-dash nothing with confidence.
I put 250 rounds of W-W hardball through it on it's first outing. It ran faultlessly. Being all steel construction, it is fairly heavy for it's size and I didn't find recoil objectionable.
Over the next 2 years, my department transitioned from revolvers to semiauto pistols after a new sheriff was elected. We were given a pretty broad choice of guns to pick from, in 9mm, 10mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, choosing between S&W second and third generation guns (they wanted the firing pin lock), Glock, Colt (Series 80 or newer, again for the firing pin lock), Berretta, Sig-Sauer and Ruger. As one of the department's "gun cranks" pushing for the transition, having a lot of the guns being considered, and also pushing to keep a wide range of approved choices available, I organized a lot of range trips to let fellow deputies try them out to see what they liked. A fair number of assorted ammo of all makers and styles was fired through my 4516 by an assortment of deputies.
I can only remember witnessing one stoppage with the 4516. A fellow had loaded it with .40 S&W cartridges by mistake. It fired the first round but the badly deformed case didn't cycle all the way out of the gun. A change to the correct cartridges, and all was well again.
All-in-all, I shot, and saw shot, about 750-1,000 rounds through my gun with just that one failure. I haven't shot the gun since about 1992, having gone in the 1911 direction with my own choice of duty and off-duty pistols.
Not a high mileage test, but I would carry my 4516-dash nothing with confidence.
Badkarma 1
US Veteran
Good, cause I got a cigar box full of them, and as much as I like my 4506-1 I prefer the somewhat lighter 645. And since I'm a bit flush after sellin that Glock, I'll see if its still there and bring it home. A nimble pocket .45 would be great this time of year!
Dale
Great information! Thank you Buff!
I have been thinking about the recoil sensitivity I experienced Saturday. I've never had a problem with a 3rd gen 45, previously. I'm thinking that the distinct tang of the 4516 frame combined with the extreme cold and wearing gloves, all played a part.
That old WWII 45 ACP was pretty stout too. Dunno.....
Anyways it is a great little 45 that points like a dream and is VERY thin, compared to its cousins.
I will be shooting it again this month and intend to shoot an IDPA match with it next month if I don't have to work. Lots of less then perfect draws and shooting multiple targets with rapid mag changes will be a good indicator of reliability. Though I must confess I am already convinced that the 4516 no dash is a reliable model.
Badkarma1 Good luck! It does point and is VERY nimble. Regards 18DAI
I have been thinking about the recoil sensitivity I experienced Saturday. I've never had a problem with a 3rd gen 45, previously. I'm thinking that the distinct tang of the 4516 frame combined with the extreme cold and wearing gloves, all played a part.
That old WWII 45 ACP was pretty stout too. Dunno.....
Anyways it is a great little 45 that points like a dream and is VERY thin, compared to its cousins.
I will be shooting it again this month and intend to shoot an IDPA match with it next month if I don't have to work. Lots of less then perfect draws and shooting multiple targets with rapid mag changes will be a good indicator of reliability. Though I must confess I am already convinced that the 4516 no dash is a reliable model.
Badkarma1 Good luck! It does point and is VERY nimble. Regards 18DAI
A few more rounds and update.
This past weekend I took the 4516 no dash out for a short lesson with a young female shooter who has decided - after shooting several different handguns/ in different calibers/ with different instructors - that she wanted to shoot a "45 carry gun" to see what it was like.
Someone suggested she contact me as I own several and we agreed to meet at the local indoor range and I would bring a couple for her to try. So, I thought why not kill two birds and bring the 4516 no dash to continue my "test" and give some compact 45 exposure to the shooter.
I also figured that if anyone can cause a compact 45 to misbehave it is a shooter new to shooting compact 45's.
The young lady showed up with 100 rounds of WWB. I had 50 rounds of Federal 230 ball to run through it. She ran a few mags through to familiarize herself with the gun. She shot it very well and liked it. Then she tried my 4513TSW V1. She didn't care as much for it due to the more substantial felt recoil. She shot more of a pattern with it whereas she was grouping pretty well with the 4516 ND.
Last gun she shot was the XDs45 range rental. She shot it better than my 4513TSW but not as well as the 4516 ND. She opined that it was a little too snappy for her although she did like the size. She then shot what was left of her ammo through the 4516 ND. She said she liked it best and inquired how much they cost and where to find one.
I advised her on a good price, the fact that they were out of production and sent her off to the auction boards.
After she left I ran 50 more rounds through my 4516. All told around 125 more flawless shots through it. No issues. Not one problem. Boring reliability. Good accuracy. Nice pistol.
As I cleaned it Saturday night I wondered whether I would even bother to continue my "test" of this pistol. I thought back to my first exposure to the 4516 no dash at that agency open range day. That was truly a random sample anyway you look at it.
It was random that I was there. It was random that there was a 4516 no dash confiscated by that agency and still in custody of same. The ammunition available was a mix of all kinds of factory fresh, filthy old rounds, roll your owns and everything in between. The gun was neglected/abused and filthy too. With no lube on it when I began shooting it. After a few hundred rounds I could detect the slide starting to "slow down" a bit and broke it down giving it a hosing with some Breakfree. The little 4516 no dash then went a few hundred more rounds that day. If you could stuff it in the one available mag, that little pistol ate it and shot it accurately. IIRC it was a little bit more accurate than the current example I own too. That event in and of itself was a very good test of that model pistol, IMO.
Anyways, I've already come to a few conclusions about the model 4516 no dash. After my personal experiences with the model, conversations with my friend Ken at the LGS (who was/is a S&W dealer) who knows more about them as he was selling them when they were still new and sent a few back to the factory, conversations with folks who built these and were there when they were made and member Catshooters experiences with several different examples of 4516 no dahs guns.
Here are my conclusions. Due to the way these guns were made, there was still a large amount of handfitting being done. The use of CNC machines was just beginning back then. Due to tolerance stacking some of these were not built to the same "standard" as other pistols of the same production run but built earlier in the day/week/month. Problems aften showed up in guns used by LE agencies. These agency guns, were they individual officer/agents guns or were they guns used for trianing seeing thousands more rounds per year than standard issue pistols? Dunno.
So I think that your odds of getting a 4516 no dash that functions 100% are very good.......better than good........excellent odds actually based on my experience and that of others.
Is there a problem or areas to watch for with these guns? Yes, the ejectors. I've read multiple reports on the net and in print of the early ejector tips breaking off due to stress fracture. Simply replacing it with the later ejector should eliminate that concern. Otherwise, just take the gun out and shoot it. Till you are content. Its a fun gun to shoot. Its not "too heavy" to carry either. It is also a good looking gun. S&W still made good looking guns with excellent triggers right out of the box back then.
So, theres my 0.02. I don't know if I'll continue to test this gun. I don't see much point in it as it is already apparent, to me, that there is no inherent reliability issue with this 4516 model gun. Besides, I want to shoot my 4566's and 645 more often than I currently am shooting them. Regards 18DAI
This past weekend I took the 4516 no dash out for a short lesson with a young female shooter who has decided - after shooting several different handguns/ in different calibers/ with different instructors - that she wanted to shoot a "45 carry gun" to see what it was like.
Someone suggested she contact me as I own several and we agreed to meet at the local indoor range and I would bring a couple for her to try. So, I thought why not kill two birds and bring the 4516 no dash to continue my "test" and give some compact 45 exposure to the shooter.
I also figured that if anyone can cause a compact 45 to misbehave it is a shooter new to shooting compact 45's.
The young lady showed up with 100 rounds of WWB. I had 50 rounds of Federal 230 ball to run through it. She ran a few mags through to familiarize herself with the gun. She shot it very well and liked it. Then she tried my 4513TSW V1. She didn't care as much for it due to the more substantial felt recoil. She shot more of a pattern with it whereas she was grouping pretty well with the 4516 ND.
Last gun she shot was the XDs45 range rental. She shot it better than my 4513TSW but not as well as the 4516 ND. She opined that it was a little too snappy for her although she did like the size. She then shot what was left of her ammo through the 4516 ND. She said she liked it best and inquired how much they cost and where to find one.
I advised her on a good price, the fact that they were out of production and sent her off to the auction boards.
After she left I ran 50 more rounds through my 4516. All told around 125 more flawless shots through it. No issues. Not one problem. Boring reliability. Good accuracy. Nice pistol.
As I cleaned it Saturday night I wondered whether I would even bother to continue my "test" of this pistol. I thought back to my first exposure to the 4516 no dash at that agency open range day. That was truly a random sample anyway you look at it.
It was random that I was there. It was random that there was a 4516 no dash confiscated by that agency and still in custody of same. The ammunition available was a mix of all kinds of factory fresh, filthy old rounds, roll your owns and everything in between. The gun was neglected/abused and filthy too. With no lube on it when I began shooting it. After a few hundred rounds I could detect the slide starting to "slow down" a bit and broke it down giving it a hosing with some Breakfree. The little 4516 no dash then went a few hundred more rounds that day. If you could stuff it in the one available mag, that little pistol ate it and shot it accurately. IIRC it was a little bit more accurate than the current example I own too. That event in and of itself was a very good test of that model pistol, IMO.
Anyways, I've already come to a few conclusions about the model 4516 no dash. After my personal experiences with the model, conversations with my friend Ken at the LGS (who was/is a S&W dealer) who knows more about them as he was selling them when they were still new and sent a few back to the factory, conversations with folks who built these and were there when they were made and member Catshooters experiences with several different examples of 4516 no dahs guns.
Here are my conclusions. Due to the way these guns were made, there was still a large amount of handfitting being done. The use of CNC machines was just beginning back then. Due to tolerance stacking some of these were not built to the same "standard" as other pistols of the same production run but built earlier in the day/week/month. Problems aften showed up in guns used by LE agencies. These agency guns, were they individual officer/agents guns or were they guns used for trianing seeing thousands more rounds per year than standard issue pistols? Dunno.
So I think that your odds of getting a 4516 no dash that functions 100% are very good.......better than good........excellent odds actually based on my experience and that of others.
Is there a problem or areas to watch for with these guns? Yes, the ejectors. I've read multiple reports on the net and in print of the early ejector tips breaking off due to stress fracture. Simply replacing it with the later ejector should eliminate that concern. Otherwise, just take the gun out and shoot it. Till you are content. Its a fun gun to shoot. Its not "too heavy" to carry either. It is also a good looking gun. S&W still made good looking guns with excellent triggers right out of the box back then.
So, theres my 0.02. I don't know if I'll continue to test this gun. I don't see much point in it as it is already apparent, to me, that there is no inherent reliability issue with this 4516 model gun. Besides, I want to shoot my 4566's and 645 more often than I currently am shooting them.
Regards 18DAI
nocents
Member
thanks 18DAI......another no BS report that we all look forward to.....made me decide to stuff mine in the range bag with the newly acquired 4506-1 for a little lead slinging session today
Kadonny
Member
Great update and write up. I hope your female friend finds a good 4516.
Thanks for the work 18DAI....
I had an very early 4516...it worked well .... nice and thin..... but just too heavy..... even with an IWBH the slide "seemed" too short to hold the butt in....
Switched to an early Sig 245..... lighter.... extra 1/2 inch of barrel (sight radius and "Butt stabilizer".. but thicker than the Smith.
Switched back to a Tactical 4513 w/ 6 round mag........ modified a set of rubber Hogue's ...... loved that gun... but could never find enough extra mags.(I like to have "at least" 6/carry gun).... so
I'm back to Sig's 245....................... what can I say.....I think the 4566 is the "best of the breed" but the weight and long butt make it awkward for CC.........
I generally carry a 3913NL.....LOL
I had an very early 4516...it worked well .... nice and thin..... but just too heavy..... even with an IWBH the slide "seemed" too short to hold the butt in....
Switched to an early Sig 245..... lighter.... extra 1/2 inch of barrel (sight radius and "Butt stabilizer".. but thicker than the Smith.
Switched back to a Tactical 4513 w/ 6 round mag........ modified a set of rubber Hogue's ...... loved that gun... but could never find enough extra mags.(I like to have "at least" 6/carry gun).... so
I'm back to Sig's 245....................... what can I say.....I think the 4566 is the "best of the breed" but the weight and long butt make it awkward for CC.........
I generally carry a 3913NL.....LOL
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Laddy Smith
Member
C'mon...
"with a young female shooter"
I've learned not to get my hopes up for pictures of your firearms but C'mon man!
No pics of a young gal shooting a 3rd gen S&W....
Lad
"with a young female shooter"
I've learned not to get my hopes up for pictures of your firearms but C'mon man!
No pics of a young gal shooting a 3rd gen S&W....
Lad
