.455" DCMk Viz

walkin jack

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I recently came into possession of a .455 top break British Webley MKI circa 1943. Several boxes of this ammo. The boxes contain 12 rounds each of this FMJ ammo. The boxes were date stamped Aug 1943 and Oct 1944. I took this gun and some of the ammo to the range and an armorer looked at it and pronounced it in great condition and fit to shoot.

I was pleasantly surprised that it would fire at all and that it was as accurate as it was. But the ammo sure made a mess in the bore and cylinder! Some truly nasty stuff.

I was wondering if anyone makes this caliber in modern ammo and where I might get some. Probably very expensive but I'd like to know if it is available somewhere.

Thanks for any info on this ammo
 
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Fiocchi makes some, its Lead Round Nose though. I think Prvi Partisan is making some as well not sure what kind of bullet. I'm sure there are some others out there too. Think they are all around $35 bucks or more per box. I think your ammo is made by Dominion Cartridge which is Canadian made if I am reading your post title correctly.
 
Thanks! I have no clue what all that stuff I put in the title is but it as printed on the box so I put it up in hopes it would help someone in the know identify it better. I appreciate the info.

Fiocchi makes some, its Lead Round Nose though. I think Prvi Partisan is making some as well not sure what kind of bullet. I'm sure there are some others out there too. Think they are all around $35 bucks or more per box. I think your ammo is made by Dominion Cartridge which is Canadian made if I am reading your post title correctly.
 
Just a word from a long-time Webley shooter; the Mark I revolver was made before 1900, and it is not nearly as strong as the more common later models. If it has a couple of stars after Mark I, that indicates an upgrade in strength. The Marks V and VI used different steel and the cylinder was slightly larger in diameter. It's still a strong gun, they even survive being converted to shoot .45 ACP with clips, but it's nice yours is not converted. I've never seen a broken one, but the early ones can loosen up with a lot of use with modern smokeless loads. Been using soft lead bullets with a light charge of Unique in mine just to go easy on the old boy. Nice historical gun, congratulations!
 
Seems as if you have some Dominion Cartridge (CIL) .455 MK VI ammo loaded with nitrocellulose powder instead of cordite. That's what the Z means, I think. Not Cordite...

The MK VI load is metal-jacketed to comply with the Hague Accords rule; is otherwise about like the MK II ball load. It fires a 265 grain bullet at about 620 FPS, plus or minus 25 FPS or so, depending on the ammo lot.

MK I cartridges used a longer case, with a muzzle velocity of 700 FPS. It was also loaded comercially as .455 Colt.

MK II used the shorter case, thought better for use with new smokeless powders, but gave just 620 FPS. It was the standard .455 load for most of the round's period of use.

MK III was a 225 grain full wadcutter lead load with a big hollowpoint. Sometimes called the Manstopper load. Velocity was similar.

MK IV was a solid wadcutter version of the Manstopper. (No hollowpoint)

MK V, I don't recall.

MK VI was adopted about 1938-39, at the behest of the Germans, who protested against the lead ammo, also the lead .38-200 bullets. Maybe they were already planning WW II?

So far as I know, the MK III and MK IV were not used in "civilized" war, but were issued in places like India, where the added stopping power was useful in dealing with fanatics who were hard to kill.

The .455 was declared obsolete in 1947.

Your Webley MK I revolver was made about 1889-1892 or so, before being superceded by MK II. MK IV was in use by 1899 and was the primary issued revolver during the Boer War. (Officers bought their own sideams, so commerical Webleys of other types and guns of other brands were also used.)

MK V was made just from 1913-1915, and was just a MK IV with a stronger cylinder. MK VI was adopted in 1915 and was gradually replaced from 1927-on with the Enfield ,38 revolver and was supplemented in WW II by Colt and S&W 38's. From 1921, the MK VI was made by Enfield Arsenal to avoid having to buy from Webley.

The MK I was made for black powder and I do not think you should fire it with smokeless loads. Some were recylindered wth later cylinders and are safer. Such changes were noted with asterisks after the basic Mark number, like MK I *.

That ammo that you fired is very collectible. You burned up some money. Try finding modern .455 ammo by Fiocchi and Hornady.

The ammo came in 12- round packs by WW II because 12 rounds was the basic issue per man armed wih a revolver. Special units like Commandos and paratroopers had more ammo, as they were especially likely to use handguns in battle. They also used many Colt .45 autos in lieu of the usual British .38 and .455 revolvers. By 1944, the Browning Hi-Power 9mm was being issued to paras. Those guns were made by Inglis in Canada.

Your old Webley is very collectible. Take care of it. They aren't cheap anymore. Guns that sold for $14.95 when I was a kid now fetch as much as $500 or more.
 
I really like the old Webley's. They have an unusual look and are indeed an odd duck. As stated above, Webley ceased production of the Mark I around the middle of the 1890s, so they were strictly built for black powder. You might have been lucky shooting smokeless jacketed ammo at the range, but please don't do it again. The original loads for these revolvers were strictly lead bullets and black powder.

Smokeless loads in 455 were fully developed in the early 1900s and improved through the years. The Military cartridges you have were designed for solid frame Enfields, S&Ws, and Colts for WWI and WWII and I would be hesitant to shoot them in any hinged frame gun. You also should be aware that most WWII ammo had corrosive primers and need to be cleaned very thoroughly in order not to leave traces of potassium salts. Use soapy cleaning solution to dissolve the salts and then clean again with good bore cleaner.
 
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Wow and just WOW!! I never expected such a wealth of information. I can't say how much I appreciate it guys. REALLY!!

This gun and ammo was given to me by a dear friend who has since passed away. It is now in a shadow box proudly displayed in my "fortress of solitude" (My son's old bedroom when he moved out I moved in. No more workin' on my guns and fishin' stuff in the skeeters and heat/cold of the garage) It will not be fired again in my lifetime.

The ammo is in cardboard boxes and I still have 10 or 12 boxes. Originally they were sealed on two sides with paper tape and on some of the boxes that tape is still intact.

Again thank you all for your generous information. I am sure glad I found this forum there is a tremendous amount of experience and knowledge in here. Y'all are the best!
 
Found this old pic of the Webley.

I also remembered that at one point it had been nickle plated. Probably diminished it's value but I have no intention of selling it ever so It's no big deal to me
 

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So, how did it shoot?

Yes, the nickling diminished value. Military collectors want the guns to be original.

Glowe-

There are no SOLID FRAME Enfield .455's. Enfield did make MK VI revolvers that are identical to Webley production, except for the markings. Quality control seems identical. I've owned them from both makers. Colt and S&W supplied many .455 New Service and MK II Hand Ejector and Triple Lock guns in WW I and .38 S&W-chambered ones in WW II.

However, the spring- powered stirrup lock on Webley and Enfield break-top guns is stronger than on break-top S&W and similar guns. It is a good idea to get a spare stirrup lock spriing, as they may break. The guns are old and metallurgy wasn't as advanced then as now. Firing pins and mainsprings also break. I've had that happen to two MK VI guns. The broken firing pin was welded by a gunsmith and worked fine.

During WW II, Webley made many .38 MK IV revolvers, but no more .455's. The .38 MK IV's are numbered in a separate commercial series, not like the military .455 MK IV.

Want to see a MK I in a movie? The sole time I've seen one was in, "Flame Over India", starring Kenneth More (not Moore) and Lauren Bacall. The captain played by More has a MK VI in most scenes but one or two switched to a MK I! Look close: the four-inch barrel and longer frame are the giveaways. The frame is not long enough for the gun to be a WG.

Commercial Webleys were well finished and the WG and models suppied for sale by Wilkinson Sword are as finely made as any revolver, ever. They have bright blue finishes and honed actions.
 
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Texas Star - you're right, Enfield 476 and 455 caliber revolvers were top break, my mistake. I think the 455 Enfields were made by Webley. I have read that Webley 455 revolvers were still in service during WWII, but maybe that source was incorrect. It is my understanding that only military Webleys were chambered in 455 and commercial guns were chambered in 442 or 476 cartridges. Hope the poster has a military version.

I still think it is a bad idea to shoot smokeless and jacketed bullets in a 120 year old BP gun.

Walkin Jack - I bet there are very few nickel Webleys out there - I kind of like the look, but Texas Star is correct, value of your refinished gun is diminished.
 
Texas Star - you're right, Enfield 476 and 455 caliber revolvers were top break, my mistake. I think the 455 Enfields were made by Webley. I have read that Webley 455 revolvers were still in service during WWII, but maybe that source was incorrect. It is my understanding that only military Webleys were chambered in 455 and commercial guns were chambered in 442 or 476 cartridges. Hope the poster has a military version.

I still think it is a bad idea to shoot smokeless and jacketed bullets in a 120 year old BP gun.

Walkin Jack - I bet there are very few nickel Webleys out there - I kind of like the look, but Texas Star is correct, value of your refinished gun is diminished.



Glowe-

You are confused. The unique Enfield revolvers of the 1880's were all in .476. They used an odd system developed by an American named Jones. You can probably find them on the Net and see what they were like. Or, "The Handgun" by Boothroyd and various other books like those covering the sidearms of the RCMP in its early days will show you. They were made by Enfield Arsenal, and Webley had nothing to do with them, either in design or manufacture.

The .476 cartridge used a 288 grain bullet at some 700 FPS and was well thought of. But the Enfield revolver was a disaster, so ill-liked that it was withdrawn within a decade. It was officially replaced by the Webley MK I in 1887, the first government-issued Webley. (For military use; the RIC and some other police used Webleys already.)

I think that what confuses many here is that some books say that the MK I was adopted in a .442 caliber, probably similar to the rounds used in some RIC and Bulldog type Webleys. That may have been true, but all production models of the MK I seem to have been chambered in .455 MK I.

Webley made commercial guns in all of these calibers, plus .450 and probably others.
Officers could buy any, but official ammo was in .455, and surely it was favored. But I've read that the US .44-40 and .45 Colt were so popular that official Stores (supply depots) in some countries stocked that ammo, too.

It is significant that Lt. Col. Vincent Fosbery, V.C. said that the best handgun "stopper" that he saw in use was the Colt Frontier .44-40. This was in the NW Frontier area of India now part of Pakistan, and his foes were about what lives there now and in Afghanistan. (His V.C. was awarded for gallantry in Afghanistan, during fighting in Khandahar.) He was quoted in, "The Peacemaker and its Rivals", by John Parsons. And, yes, he was later the designer of the Webley-Fosbery Automatic Revolver.

Most of the govt.-issued MK I-V revolvers had four-inch barrels, but some had five or six inchers. Officers buying from Stores seem to have favored the longer ones, but not universally. I have seen a photo of two NCO's and one officer from the Royal Household Cavalry in 1914, and all three wore four-inch barrels. But officers had flapped holsters; enlisted open-top, with a cleaning rod fitted in loops on the back.

In, "Flame Over India," I noted that the captain was using a MK VI in 1905, a gun not made until 1915. I wrote it off to movies being movies, as with the MK VI's used in 1879 in, "Zulu." But I later learned of the Webley & Scott Army Revolver, made from 1904 and maybe earlier. It looked like a MK VI with a front sight like the MK IV, part of the barrel. It was never adopted, but was quite popular with officers buying their own guns. The lockwork was probably honed and the finish a little better than the flat blue of the service-issued Webleys. It cost more, but not as much as the finely-finished WG or Webley-Wilkinson models. So, the captain could have had a W&S Army Model and looked about the same. He might have just gotten a Wilkinson-Webley of 1905, too, although the bright blue finish would be distinctive, and the wooden grips with a gold oval for his initials. But I've never seen one of these in a film. Rlfles in the Kenneth More film were SMLE's, the extras actual Indian troops in 1960, when the film was made. Some No. 4 rifles lurk in the background. In reality, the Indian forces in 1905 would have had long Lee-Enfields or Lee-Metfords, maybe the first of the SMLE's, adopted in Dec., 1902. Had I been the director, I'd have set the movie in 1919 or so, allowing the guns used. Nothing much else would have changed, although the early Maxim MG would have been a Vickers. That should have been easy for a movie director to locate!

Oh: some reading this may wonder why Wilkinson Sword would be selling Webley (or other) revolvers.
The answer is, upon graduation from Sandhurst, young officers needed to buy a sword and a revolver. The best swords were made by Wilkinson, and it was easy for affluent officers to go there and buy both sword and handgun. So the swordmaker contracted with Webley to provide fancy guns made to their specs. They came in three models, of 1892 (one was used by Churchill before he bought his famous Mauser), of 1905, and 1911. The last two looked like finely blued MK VI's, although the official MK VI came later. They also had wooden grip plates with a gold oval for initials. The 1905 and 1911 varied in having six grooves of rifling in one, seven in the other. I think the 1911 MAY have also had a cylinder with thicker walls, to be safer with smokeless powder. But I checked Boothroyd's, "The Handgun" and he mentioned only the rifling difference. I do not have Dowell's,"The Webley Story."
 
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