Any simblance of QC at S&W in and of itself would truly be a WONDER
What has happened to QC at Smith and Wesson?
- Thread starter jfeenin
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Unfortunately, as the workforce gets older, the true craftspeople are retiring and being replaced by the newer get kids that have absolutely no pride in anything, are lazy as all get out and couldn't care less that the quality of the product they are producing is crap. After all, turning that screw another 1/8 turn to secure it properly is too much work. Used to be that Friday afternoon and Monday morning products sometimes had issues, now it's a daily occurrence. I am pressing 80, still work part time to fund my shooting hobby and see this every day at work. Put in my time, do as little as possible, collect the paycheck and get out the door before anybody can ask me to do something more. Don't overlook the fact that there is more than a good chance that some of these employees are anti gun.
I would not blame the younger generation. I know plenty of 20 something year olds who take pride in their work and they get paid well.Unfortunately, as the workforce gets older, the true craftspeople are retiring and being replaced by the newer get kids that have absolutely no pride in anything, are lazy as all get out and couldn't care less that the quality of the product they are producing is crap. After all, turning that screw another 1/8 turn to secure it properly is too much work. Used to be that Friday afternoon and Monday morning products sometimes had issues, now it's a daily occurrence. I am pressing 80, still work part time to fund my shooting hobby and see this every day at work. Put in my time, do as little as possible, collect the paycheck and get out the door before anybody can ask me to do something more. Don't overlook the fact that there is more than a good chance that some of these employees are anti gun.
Old school guys? They had a house kids and a CAREER.
Today? There is some kids who according to glass door and indeed make 17-19 bucks to put together guns. 19 bucks in 2025? That gets you maybe 2 roommates and if you are lucky a used car with a lengthy loan. It is not a job or a career for them, it is a gig. If they don't like it they can go drive for uber, work at a parts counter, and a bunch of other things.
I feel like there is a massive disconnect in PERCEPTION of economic reality today for young adults.
But I can guarantee you that if we got an accountant and an MBA out here they would break it down for us mathematically why it has to be this way and they will be right whether we like it or not.
I only have one S&W, a revolver, made since the 1990s, I have at least a dozen earlier pieces and have not had a moment's problem with any of them. The gun business, like any other business has a single goal. The goal is not to make the best possible handgun for the money, it is to make the most money possible, for the investors, from the handgun. Customer service does not make money, it cost money. Silly little stuff like unhappy customers does not impress them until sales fall off. That is business.
Correct, they file a 10-K they are publicly traded and have a duty to stock owners to make money. Some people still have a hard time with that. You want a true gun company who cares about their product? No, no you dont. We all say that but we dont want our our wallets to write the checks our mouths wrote.
That means paying 4-5 thousand dollars to custom 1911 smith, that means dropping a grand or two on a custom rimfire.
That means paying 4-5 thousand dollars to custom 1911 smith, that means dropping a grand or two on a custom rimfire.
Claims Rep.
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EXACTLY!!! I’ve had a lot of success with -3 and -4 686’s and 629’s. I won’t own one with an internal lock (my choice…. S&W caved to the Clinton’s, and I won’t support that choice). It’s taken a lot of patience on my part, but I’ve managed to acquire several -3 and -4 variants that are as good as anything S&W ever produced. And as someone else said earlier in this thread, once you get your hands on one of the quality, older S&W revolvers you hold on to them and never sell them.
Same here . Put 150 through mine first time out. 50 each of 115,124 and 147 grain speer fmj. Flawless.
Love that gun…
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I own and have owned a lot of S&W firearms over the years, mostly revolvers. Most without locks and some of the newer ones with the lock. I have found that with the lock turned off, there is no difference in the function or smoothness of the revolvers action. Thus I really don't care if I buy a new revolver with or without the lock. I think that all of the hype and complaints about the lock are contained between the ears of the shooter. Just Sayin!!
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Over the years I have found that there are many out of the box firearms that shoot sub moa, if you are patient enough to find the commercial ammo that they like, or load ammo that they like.
Paying thousands of dollars for a custom firearm, rifle or pistol is in a manner of speaking a waste of money or just something to boost your ego. You can get a quality factory firearm that will shoot as small, or maybe smaller groups than your custom job for anywhere from $300 to $1500, thousands less than your custom job cost that will do the same or better job. I have Remington, Winchester and Tikka rifles in different calibers that all shoot sub moa. I have a Gold Cup National Match, a Sig M17 and a S&W M19 that will put 10 rounds into the 10 - X ring at 50 or more feet as well as any of your custom or high priced handguns will do. On the range I often get dirty looks or snide remarks, especially when my Remington 700 or other out of the box firearms performs as well or better than the custom job on the next firing point.
Just like any other corporation, Smith and Wesson is out to produce the least expensive product possible for the highest price that is sustainable. If poor quality begins to affect sales, they will step up, otherwise they will continue to search out cost saving measures.
I don't buy a lot of new guns so I don't see a decline in quality. The Smith and Wesson logo on a product is still, as far as I am concerned, the mark of a good quality firearm. That said, Smith and Wesson production lines have to survive Fridays and Mondays and sometimes crap gets through; it happens.
I don't buy a lot of new guns so I don't see a decline in quality. The Smith and Wesson logo on a product is still, as far as I am concerned, the mark of a good quality firearm. That said, Smith and Wesson production lines have to survive Fridays and Mondays and sometimes crap gets through; it happens.
OK, I am not complaining about the lock, MIM parts or heavy trigger pulls. I just need to get this off my chest regarding QC at S&W if this even exists today. I am old school 79, military vet and retired LE. I carried a 19 and 66 for many years, and shot the K38 Masterpiece in competition. Within the last week, I purchased a S&W Model 617 and I am returning it for service. I am totally astonished on how this revolver left the factory. The rear sight elevation screw is bottomed out to the degree that it will not move. When opening the cylinder it binds, Light strikes all the time with quality ammunition. Incomplete finishing on the frame with wire wheel marks. What really ticks me off, is that when viewing the sellers website, they only list five star reviews and just a couple of four star reviews. Am I the only one that received a poor quality $900 revolver that needs an automatic service turnaround?
Did you leave poor feedback that was removed from public view?
Larry
They not only had a highly skilled and specialized work force in former days as was required to make quality revolvers, they had QC AT THE FACTORY. Those eagle eyes would catch MOST anything that didn't smell right. I remember seeing how they worked over a revolver before it went out the door that made user problems a rare event. I think that besides losing that dedicated and motivated workforce, (that can't be changed, as the world is a different place now) the policy of 'any gun that doesn't make it out the door is your mistake and a waste of our money' is the fault of management. Not to mention the general quality of the workforce these days. And I don't think that they check them nearly as thoroughly as they used to. I also think that they pay much more attention to their semi-auto pistols than they do their revolvers, but those have some issues, too. Somebody mentioned how a company responds to complaints makes a difference. When I started hearing the factory respond with, "The gun is within specifications' when they had cockeyed barrels I knew something was changing. What can anybody think about a gun manufacturer that can't tap and screw a barrel on straight? And people complained about over or underclocked barrels that the factory said was 'in spec'. I found out that 'in spec' meant +/- 5 degrees. That is one whopping tolerance. I also saw how the person at the factory clocked barrels. He puts it on a jig and with a big wrench EYEBALLS when it's 'right'. He must be as near-sighted as I am. I suppose some kind of indexing would be too costly to implement but +/- 5 degrees is just fine.Raise your hand if you refuse to believe “Smith & Wesson was always this bad, it’s just the new fangled internet only just now letting victims of lousy QC share stories.”
That’s BUNK.
S&W has never been worse at quality control. This is a new era and the darkest yet.
Oh, I'd like to add that I have no problem at all with MIM parts. I put out a poll one time asking who had MIM parts fail. I didn't get a single affirmative answer. As far as the 'hole' goes, I'd rather not have a gun with a built in lock. I have a safe for locking guns up.
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I was at a precision rifle class, I jokingly called it the 10k line. 5k custom rifles 5k optics, custom handloads. We had a 50+ year old marine show up "to do a bit of shooting" we had to help him lay down he was walking with a stick and was pretty darn well broken down. He had a 2000s factory rem 700 with that rubber tupperware stock that flexed if you looked at it funny, he had a that 10x or 8x super sniper fixed scope and some factory ammo.
The best way I can describe our shooting compared to ours with all of our custom guns and expensive Zeiss and Steiner optics is him taking our lunch money and buying lunch with it and making us watch as he quietly ate it all without effort.
That made an impression on me. Every one else was big on 6.5mm stuff and I stuck with 308 winchester and 155 grain palma bullets. Shooting that taught me a LOT about reading the wind. That was the ultimate "its the indian and not the arrow" moment.
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That is the difference between a true marksman and the current group of high tech wannabees. Without the high tech equipment and fancy rifles most would be lost if given a regular rifle with a sling, no bipod, in some cases iron sights and a spotting scope and asked to accurately hit targets at long distances.
It ain't the tool, it's the mechanic.
As far as QC here is my take as a retired after 45 years plus in Quality Assurance.
From a management point of view QC is EXPENSIVE and is considered overhead and not a Value Added operation. Therefore it is desired to do as little of it as possible. Other than in certain areas such as Aerospace, nuclear, etc 100% inspection is gone down the road and replaced with sampling, SPC ( a form of sampling) reliance on state of the art machining or processing and / or self inspection by the machinists, I use machinist loosely as there are very few real machinists any longer; what you have now are button pushers. Take a part out, put in another piece and push the button. There was a time when people took a lot of pride in their work and I have known my share of people that before a part was brought to inspection everything that could be checked by them WAS checked by them. They are gone now or in the minority. The sad thing is that many of the old line companies made their reputation in the days of putting out the best product possible with the hands on inspection, gaging, and testing that goes with it. Unfortunately, what I call the MBA types now run things and max profit with the minimum outlay is the rule of the day and a part / product made as cheaply as possible while falling within whatever liberal specs they can use is much better than the same part / product made carefully, to as high a standard as achievable and tested for same. After al, they both work and the average customer can't tell the difference or doesn't care. Another factor is collectability; as an item becomes very collectible management knows that most will never be used. Instead they will be looked at and placed lovingly into a collection without ever actually, God forbid, using it.
I've had experiences with new S&W products that have been all over the map. A couple-three years ago for my birthday present to myself I acquired a Performance Center EZ380. To really test it out I ran through it handloads with semiwadcutter bullets of unknown origin. Not a hiccup in the bunch. Go back into the 1980s. S&W came out with the Model 624 in .44 Special, and I bought one. After I brought it home, I started cocking the gun repeatedly. I discovered at certain points I practically had to use both thumbs to cock the hammer. I surmised that the cylinder was out of true just enough to have parts of the cylinder rub on the forcing cone. Since the gun was still in warranty, I sent it back to S&W to fix the problem with the cylinder dragging. When the gun came back, the cylinder drag was eliminated and I had the impression that the Service Department went over the whole gun to tune it up. I still have the gun.
Jerry in SC
Member
MIM or metallurgy isn’t a problem. It’s the carelessness of assembly. S&W can build some nice revolvers when it’s done right.
I PREFER iron sights. You know just how good you are/aren't. I have one red dot and one 4x scope on my 20 something guns. Unfortunately the iron sights are getting harder to see. 
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I too much prefer iron sights on a handgun. I learned to shoot a handgun using iron sights, I spent 30 years in the Army shooting iron sights, I shot competition both in the Army and NRA with iron sights so most of my experience has been with iron sights. I do however much prefer adjustable iron sights to fixed. Throughout the years I have tried both scopes, which I found excessively bulky not to mention heavy as well as red dots. While red dots do add a bit of accuracy the drawbacks far outweigh the advantages. Getting used to drawing, finding the dot and finally getting it on target takes a lot of practice, and for me at least, slows down getting the first shot off. In a high stress situation it might take too long to find the dot, which would not be a good thing.
When initially getting training on the red dot, it was one on one with the instructor. He had me shooting at pie plates at 20 feet. He was shooting a Glock 17 with one of the high quality red dots on it with a Level II holster. During his demonstration of draw and fire, shooting the 5 plates against the clock he managed to draw and hit all 5 plated in 4.2 seconds. He hit the plates, but the hits were scattered on the plates. At that time I did not have a red dot on my M17. We were using his Glock for the training. I told him I could do better than that with iron sights. He challenged me to put the bullets where, as he put it, "My Pie Hole was." (X - Marine Gunny) I went to my car and brought out the M17, which he didn't much care for either (He, like me was a 1911 person) He did the timing, when the buzzer went off I drew and shot all 5 of the plates in 3.8 seconds, all the shots near the center of the plate. When I was done firing, he looked at the timer, then at the plates and simply said, "Nice job." then went back into his dissertation about the red dot. I finished up the training still unimpressed but due to company requirements at the time ended up putting a red dot on the M17. Several months later when on the range for our semi annual qualification I took out the M17, and found that the battery was dead and the red dot inoperable. That was when I took the red dot off, put the adjustable rear sights back on and never toyed with a red dot again.
I have an inherent mistrust of any sight system that relies on batteries. I do however make one exception and that is for laser sights. While laser sights are useless in bright sunlight or at distances over 50 feet, they redeem themselves in dim light as well as when close to your target. When sighted in correctly, the bullet is going to go where that little red or green dot (I prefer green) dot is when you pull the trigger. What this means in a combat situation is that as soon as the gun clears the holster and you put the dot on the target, you can start shooting without having to bring the handgun completely up and aim through the sights. This speeds up the first accurate shot to around 2 seconds or less and for those of us that are getting up there in the years makes shooting fast and accurately easy.
The one caveat is that the handgun and laser have to be the type where the laser turns on when you grasp the handgun to shoot. If you have to turn it on manually it is about useless for a self defense firearm. Crimson Trace has many of these available for both revolvers and semi autos. While I still defer to irons on most of my firearms, my carry gun, a Kimber Micro 9 is equipped with a laser (and thumb safety) Small enough to be able to hide almost anywhere, large enough to be able to grip easily and accurate enough out to 50 feet and with the thumb safety safe enough to hide anywhere.
When initially getting training on the red dot, it was one on one with the instructor. He had me shooting at pie plates at 20 feet. He was shooting a Glock 17 with one of the high quality red dots on it with a Level II holster. During his demonstration of draw and fire, shooting the 5 plates against the clock he managed to draw and hit all 5 plated in 4.2 seconds. He hit the plates, but the hits were scattered on the plates. At that time I did not have a red dot on my M17. We were using his Glock for the training. I told him I could do better than that with iron sights. He challenged me to put the bullets where, as he put it, "My Pie Hole was." (X - Marine Gunny) I went to my car and brought out the M17, which he didn't much care for either (He, like me was a 1911 person) He did the timing, when the buzzer went off I drew and shot all 5 of the plates in 3.8 seconds, all the shots near the center of the plate. When I was done firing, he looked at the timer, then at the plates and simply said, "Nice job." then went back into his dissertation about the red dot. I finished up the training still unimpressed but due to company requirements at the time ended up putting a red dot on the M17. Several months later when on the range for our semi annual qualification I took out the M17, and found that the battery was dead and the red dot inoperable. That was when I took the red dot off, put the adjustable rear sights back on and never toyed with a red dot again.
I have an inherent mistrust of any sight system that relies on batteries. I do however make one exception and that is for laser sights. While laser sights are useless in bright sunlight or at distances over 50 feet, they redeem themselves in dim light as well as when close to your target. When sighted in correctly, the bullet is going to go where that little red or green dot (I prefer green) dot is when you pull the trigger. What this means in a combat situation is that as soon as the gun clears the holster and you put the dot on the target, you can start shooting without having to bring the handgun completely up and aim through the sights. This speeds up the first accurate shot to around 2 seconds or less and for those of us that are getting up there in the years makes shooting fast and accurately easy.
The one caveat is that the handgun and laser have to be the type where the laser turns on when you grasp the handgun to shoot. If you have to turn it on manually it is about useless for a self defense firearm. Crimson Trace has many of these available for both revolvers and semi autos. While I still defer to irons on most of my firearms, my carry gun, a Kimber Micro 9 is equipped with a laser (and thumb safety) Small enough to be able to hide almost anywhere, large enough to be able to grip easily and accurate enough out to 50 feet and with the thumb safety safe enough to hide anywhere.
